Warcraft : Humans

[LordPerenolde II]

It's the latest version of warcraft 3. Classic graphics not the reforged.

You need version 1.28 or previous(least 1.26 I think?). It's even advised in the download section. Otherwise small bugs like this are likely to happen.
You can find it in my signature or around The Hive.

 

[TAXIARHIS01]

You need version 1.28 or previous(least 1.26 I think?). It's even advised in the download section. Otherwise small bugs like this are likely to happen.
You can find it in my signature or around The Hive.

Oh, I didn't see that. Excuse me. Also (since am new to this kind of stuff) how do I switch to previous versions

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Oh, I didn't see that. Excuse me. Also (since am new to this kind of stuff) how do I switch to previous versions

Hmmm, I wouldn't really know. Maybe you can copy and paste the entire folder in your pc and just run it like that. As long as you have an original warcraft 3 installed it should run fine.

 

[Ravager16829]

Oh, I didn't see that. Excuse me. Also (since am new to this kind of stuff) how do I switch to previous versions

You can have multiple copies of this game, assuming that they were in different folders. Since you are using the latest version of WC3 (1.36, I think), it is highly recommend you purging the game registry as 1.32+ registries literally breaks everything that's related to pre-1.32, especially the ability to use the World Editor.

Unfortunately, this is really an off-topic, so I won't post a full detail regarding this matter. If you want to get any versions of WC3 pre-1.32 (and ask any kind of questions about installation problem), you should refer to this thread below:

WC3 Download Archive (1.00 - 1.31.1 + BETA & DEMO)

Below are lists of WC3 installation and patch downloads. Please don't share any cracked or otherwise manipulated files. This list is only intended for people who already own the game, you still need a CD-key! 1.01c 1.04c 1.10 TFT: 1.20a; 1.20e 1.23a 1.28.0; 1.28.1; 1.28.2; 1.28.3; 1.28.4...

www.hiveworkshop.com

 

[Wrynn.CZ]

There are few bugs in building selection. When you click it your worker (orc) will stop doing whatever he was and wait. Also "Buildings" and "Advanced buildings" have both list of all buildings.
Playable and enjoyable though, thank you Lord Perenolde II. ;-)

 

[LordPerenolde II]

There are few bugs in building selection. When you click it your worker (orc) will stop doing whatever he was and wait. Also "Buildings" and "Advanced buildings" have both list of all buildings.
Playable and enjoyable though, thank you Lord Perenolde II. ;-)

Which game version are you using?

 

[Wrynn.CZ]

Which game version are you using?

solved by upgrade from 1.27 to 1.28.5.7680. Thx

 

[PenetratorGod]

I don't really like the gameplay, the maps are unnecessarily big and more than half of them are empty. Also, at the beginning of each chapter, our main base is set far away from the trees and gold mines, which makes no sense. Soldier and worker prices are also very expensive. I don't know if I'll finish all the chapters, honestly it feels like a chore. If I can't play this one, I'll look for the remastered version. I tried it because I liked the gameplay of Warcraft 3, but it was a bit disappointing.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I don't really like the gameplay, the maps are unnecessarily big and more than half of them are empty. Also, at the beginning of each chapter, our main base is set far away from the trees and gold mines, which makes no sense. Soldier and worker prices are also very expensive. I don't know if I'll finish all the chapters, honestly it feels like a chore. If I can't play this one, I'll look for the remastered version. I tried it because I liked the gameplay of Warcraft 3, but it was a bit disappointing.

This is the closest thing you can get on a remake of warcraft 1 using warcraft 3 assets.
Warcraft 1 remaster is just like this, but with a few life improvements over the original, like up to 9 selectable units simultaneously, improved graphics and zoom'able visual. Heck, you don't even get to queue up unit production in there!
Units' cost is exactly as it was. Actually, the economy system is what really breaks up this remake(something that I did redact in the warcraft 2 remake), but nobody ever noticed that, it seems...
Gold mines and trees also were not close to the starting position, and maps were mostly barren as well. The gameplay in the upscaled maps of the remake is mitigated by the faster speed set for all units, so that they can cover the equivalent distance as in the actual game.
If your feedback is based on what you play, take it on Blizzard, not me. I just copied their first, legendary game, as accurately as it was possible, and that is where you have to base your judgement on.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Any plans to update the campaign so that resource for each units doesn't take as much? Currently I'm unable to progress without using resource cheats.

What do you mean "so that resource for each unit doesn't take as much"?

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I'm asking if you can make so that the resource needed for each unit to be made is not absurd as it currently is.

You mean the price for each unit? Just to be 100% sure I'm not misunderstanding you, make me a few examples, please.
Also, is the gold income rate 100 per cargo?

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Yes and yes.

I'm am adding to what this user pointed here:

Yes. As for "examples" I meant NUMBERS.
As far as I know I haven't touched nor changed anything cost-wise from the real Warcraft 1, ever since I've created these campaign, that's why I wanna know what are you talking about. Give me a few examples of numbers correlated to units, and then I can give an answer to your inquiry.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I said the units are far too costly. You know this. The other user pointed that out too. I was hoping some improvement are brought over from the vanilla game.

Never mind. I'm just gonna rush through everything with cheats and just finish the whole thing

So you DIDN'T notice what I was alluding to, regarding "game-breaking" economy system!
The units were just as "expensive" as this in the original game. I'm not gonna change anything regarding stats taken from the original game(let alone unit costs) for any reason whatsoever.
People already played and went through the remake, just the way as it's meant to be in the original game.
Have fun in using cheats.

 

[reedodeedo]

Terrible balancing, no form of improvement despite having the tools to do so via an improve engine.

As is? Not recommended

PS: Already did an edit of a Balanced version myself and will share it with others freely, thanks again for sharing the campaign with us for free!!! Tee hee you're totes the best~

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Terrible balancing, no form of improvement despite having the tools to do so via an improve engine.

"Terrible balancing" as of what? Unit prices, like the way you claimed earlier?
Also, very smart to delete messages when they stay quoted within my replies...

PS: Already did an edit of a Balanced version myself

Without my approval?? Get out of here.
People like you are a cancer to the modding community, and should disappear from the face of Internet.
I've already reported you, so I'm done personally dealing with you.

P.S. make up your mind. It doesn't matter how many times you rate it, "Still only counts as one!"

 

[reedodeedo]

Also, very smart to delete messages when they stay quoted within my replies...

People like you are a cancer to the modding community, and should disappear from the face of Internet.

Don't care lmao whatever you'd do to stay empowered I guess heehee
Too bad peeps like me are here to stay as long as elitist modders like you who can't even take suggestions and instead respond like a pompous fella exists heeeheee

Anyways! Get ready for the Balanced version to be uploaded!

 

[Footman16]

Anyways! Get ready for the Balanced version to be uploaded!

Uploading an edited version of someone elses's work without their permission is against the rules.

 

[reedodeedo]

Uploading an edited version of someone elses's work without their permission is against the rules.

Understood!

 

[deepstrasz]

Terrible balancing, no form of improvement despite having the tools to do so via an improve engine.

As is? Not recommended

PS: Already did an edit of a Balanced version myself and will share it with others freely, thanks again for sharing the campaign with us for free!!! Tee hee you're totes the best~

Please keep the child within yourself when rating without proper rationale.

Don't care lmao whatever you'd do to stay empowered I guess heehee
Too bad peeps like me are here to stay as long as elitist modders like you who can't even take suggestions and instead respond like a pompous fella exists heeeheee

Anyways! Get ready for the Balanced version to be uploaded!

No one is obligated to answer your demands. You are the "elitist", self entitled too.

 

[reedodeedo]

Please keep the child within yourself when rating without proper rationale.

No one is obligated to answer your demands. You are the "elitist", self entitled too.

Funny stuff coming from THE ACTUAL ELITIST of the Hive lmao.

Don't care, already edited it myself with new custom HQ models and modern stats, also I having SO MUCH FUN with it and shared with my groupmates lol

Don't choose this hobby where you let others consume your product if you get bitchass pissy about consumer asking for something.

Boooooo elitist snob
Aaaaaanyways, Thanks @LordPerenolde II YOU ARE THE GOAT! I'll re-rate higher later once I finished the last Orc Campaign. hehehe Hard Mode for both campaign are coool! And with the new models I added it looks like a true Remake heheh

 

[The Nightmare Book]

I decided to play it on Reforged. I played it a bit before patch 2.0 and didn't have any issues. It shows that you had spent so much passion and love into your recreation of the original Warcraft 1.
Looking forward to finding the strength to finish it on "normal" (yes I'm quite a casual gamer) and publish a full review of your campaign!

For now - like and recommend.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I decided to play it on Reforged. I played it a bit before patch 2.0 and didn't have any issues. It shows that you had spent so much passion and love into your recreation of the original Warcraft 1.
Looking forward to finding the strength to finish it on "normal" (yes I'm quite a casual gamer) and publish a full review of your campaign!

For now - like and recommendation.

Hey thank you! It's cool that it seems to be working without issues on Reforged! Let me know if you get any!

EDIT: I have written my comments below your video. Reforged does have its flaws on previous versions' contents, after all...

 

[jackiechun]

I have to concur with previous posters who have pointed out this mod is unreasonably difficult and probably at least twice as hard as the original game in some places on Medium mode. It is regrettable because clearly the author has put a lot of time and passion into this project; however I cannot recommend a game which is in an incomplete or imbalanced state, and therefore I have to explain why you should not play this mod. Note that I did not attempt Hard Mode, so all of this is describing Medium mode in Reforged with classic graphics. It is possible there is some kind of bug introduced by reforged, and if so it could be causing some of the problems for people.

Although I have not played the original Warcraft I, the videos I have seen indicate the difficulty is far less in terms of how often the enemy attacks, with what units, etc. Mostly I am thinking of levels 7 and 12, especially the latter where I have spent over a week trying different builds and strategies to beat it. Before I describe in detail what I did to win, here is mclabel's post summarizing the problems: Warcraft : Humans

In mission 12 I thought initially I would be able to win by having a very tight build order. (This is how I beat mission 7 which was also dramatically harder compared to previous missions. But once I had an efficient build order and enough warning time on the catapults it was doable.) The plan was to get about 10 conjurers at which point that would be enough to defend the main and also attack the north and west orc bases. You start with a mill and no blacksmith, so you have to build one first. What you quickly realize playing this level is that the AI is extremely aggressive. First it sends a single daemon. Then 2. Then after that increasingly large swarms of spearmen/warlocks/catapults. Your initial army is 3 knights, a priest, a conjurer, a footman, and a few archers. I spent several days attempting to fight at the location in this video, until I realized it was probably hopeless and I needed to fight closer to the main and rely on walls as distractions:

After several days of practicing with my build and figuring out how to dodge that poison spell which almost instantly kills your conjurers, I managed to beat the level. So a little over a week in total I guess of gameplay. The key is you have to play completely perfectly and rely on some luck; you have to start making a farm exactly at 21/21 or 25/25; you have to get just enough wood for your buildings; and you have to hit every daemon with your 2 initial catapults. (Every catapult shot has to kill at least a raider or a couple spearmen or a daemon. Your knights die to daemons in I think 3 hits so you can't really tank them at all.) Then by the time the warlocks are showing up with 2-3 catapults and summoning 4-5 daemons in your base you have enough conjurers to counter-summon water elementals. But even that isn't enough; you also need to maintain at least 3-4 wall squares to tank a little so that the daemons don't demolish your buildings (I had several endings where I got the water elementals out but the daemons had killed too many buildings). The initial resources you start with make it very difficult to pump out enough units in time given how aggressively the AI is hitting you with multiple waves of catapults, warlocks, necrolytes, daemons, etc (sometimes I would defeat one wave only for the next to immediately start). However if you can play efficiently and keep enough archers and catapults and walls to hold off everything, eventually the conjurer count gets high enough that you can just summon 6 water elementals and hold off a wave, and then summon 8 or 9 and just destroy all the forces massing in the middle. From there you can destroy the orc bases fairly easily.

If I had to guess why these levels are so difficult, I would say it's probably from the author having contradictory goals in mind. On the one hand wanting to make it like the original game is understandable. But clearly it's also desirable to provide a fun experience in the warcraft 3 engine which doesn't allow some things from the original game like only selecting 4 units. So I think what happened is the author increased the difficulty generally while also trying to mimic the original game, and the result is some levels you can beat simply by playing as if it were warcraft 3, like level 7. But some you need to play as if it were warcraft I, like level 12 where you have to get every demolisher shot perfect several times in a row or else you'll lose too many units. The result is that I played these maps as if they were warcraft3 maps and that worked fine until the later maps at which point you need to have those mechanics memorized to even have a chance!

Anyway I haven't yet left a star rating, if the author can somehow demonstrate these difficulties are bugs, or maybe related to reforged somehow then there is the possibility to repair them and I can leave a good rating and recommend you play this. However if not then you'll have to look elsewhere for a good warcraft I experience in a modern engine.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

Hello. Thank you for you feedback.
I can't tell much about map12 at this time; it's been about 15 years ago when I first released it, and 10 years ago when I released the Hard Mode.
You can check on Jayborino's playthrough video here, and see about it.

Note that at the time of this video, I planned the Hard Mode of this map to be unbeatable, because of the entire purpose of the Hard Mode, which is mainly to achieve 100% bonus objectives' completion along the campaign, so to unlock a final bonus objective on map12 which allows you basically to skip the entire map to the Bonus Campaign.
After this video was released, I've reverted the Hard Mode back to the way it's playable in Medium, so it could be beaten, and I haven't touched the map since then. Still, you're talking about having extremely hard time on Medium difficulty, so, again, I'd suggest you to check with Jayborino's video for any anomalies between the old version and Reforged(which is known to mess things up script-wise).
If you indeed find any anomalies between the video and things happening in your playthrough, then you'll definitely need to switch version of the game(check my signature down below). On a side note, thank you for not jumping to conclusion and bombvote, like many, less "able-minded" people, did in the past, instead. Please update me on the situation.

 

[jackiechun]

I'm testing out the 1.28.5 version from your profile and noticed it's less buggy right away since the voice intros are playing. However I haven't noticed any gameplay differences yet. One potential bug is I can't replay missions on medium after already beating them on medium and hard, because it resets the next level to only allow selecting medium. I think I can get around this by just using allyourbasearebelongtous on hard mode, but I think that may also reset doing the optional quests and remove the power items. Maybe I'll come up with a solution by looking at the map code, not sure. I have already beaten all the medium and hard levels except mission 12 on hard mode. It's supposed to be beatable on the version I downloaded correct?

Also there is a bug on one of the levels, if I hit the escape key repeatedly something happens to the timer in the upper right and the main quest instantly fails and you lose. I think it was mission 10.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

One potential bug is I can't replay missions on medium after already beating them on medium and hard, because it resets the next level to only allow selecting medium.

Wait, so you say you can't replay maps on medium, but it happens only after you beat them on medium AND hard?? That's weird. I mean, you only get to see the Hard button on screen afterwards? That doesn't sound like anything supposed to happen.

but I think that may also reset doing the optional quests and remove the power items.

Yeah, using cheat codes prevents you from actually completing the bonus objectives, voiding the "100% completion" towards the end.

I have already beaten all the medium and hard levels except mission 12 on hard mode. It's supposed to be beatable on the version I downloaded correct?

Yes, this version has the final maps actually beatable on Hard.

Also there is a bug on one of the levels, if I hit the escape key repeatedly something happens to the timer in the upper right and the main quest instantly fails and you lose. I think it was mission 10.

This sounds like something I recall having experienced some 20 years ago, while testing my own Starcraft maps back then. By pressing Esc I could cause literal chaos with timed scripts.
I didn't know what caused it(perhaps some sort of "debug" mode active?), I didn't know it existed in Wc3, and I wouldn't know how to disable it.

 

[jackiechun]

Wait, so you say you can't replay maps on medium, but it happens only after you beat them on medium AND hard?? That's weird. I mean, you only get to see the Hard button on screen afterwards? That doesn't sound like anything supposed to happen.

To be clear what happens is I have beaten all the missions on medium and hard (except 12) and gotten all bonus objectives. If I then replay mission A on medium and complete it then mission A+1 is no longer allowed to be played in hard mode. It resets to allowing only medium mode. If I then beat that new mission, then mission A+2 is also not showing the hard mode button anymore. I'm working around this currently by failing medium missions just before completing them. This behavior occurred both in reforged and in your 1.28.5 pack.

As far as voices go I don't know what the problem is in Reforged with them. I had Music off, but when I turn it on I only occasionally hear the voice played. Sometimes it plays when I hit escape to skip the dialogue. In your 1.28.5 pack I do hear the voice but it is very muffled, barely audible unless I crank the music volume way up. There is a button in Reforged Mode that toggles between "Classic" and "Reforged" but as afaik it's only cosmetic. There is also a button marked "Classic Sounds" but that didn't seem to have an effect either. I didn't even realize you had voice recording until I tried the map in the 1.28.5 pack.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

To be clear what happens is I have beaten all the missions on medium and hard (except 12) and gotten all bonus objectives. If I then replay mission A on medium and complete it then mission A+1 is no longer allowed to be played in hard mode. It resets to allowing only medium mode. If I then beat that new mission, then mission A+2 is also not showing the hard mode button anymore. I'm working around this currently by failing medium missions just before completing them. This behavior occurred both in reforged and in your 1.28.5 pack.

Ooooohhhh, I see now! Yeah, that actually makes sense! There's a function that binds the next map difficulty level to Medium if the current one is completed at Medium.

As far as voices go I don't know what the problem is in Reforged with them. I had Music off, but when I turn it on I only occasionally hear the voice played. Sometimes it plays when I hit escape to skip the dialogue.

I saw a footage on Reforged and the custom imported musics and sounds are SO off there! Like, musics won't play at all or play with a very large pause in between them, audio briefings not playing at all. Hard to watch!

In your 1.28.5 pack I do hear the voice but it is very muffled, barely audible unless I crank the music volume way up.

"Music volume"? Strange, the audio files were set to "Audio", not "Music".
I'm not sure how exactly do they sound on your end, I know their quality wasn't top notch as their wc2 counterparts. They might sound off because I might have cranked up their original audio volume a bit, but nothing excessive, as far as I remember.

 

[jackiechun]

The problem with the sound was my headphones mostly, tested it out again and the voice is overshadowed by the background music in that once the mission starts the background music is a tad loud. Other than that I think I have to have the sound effects turned up a lot too but I do that on normal wc3 as well.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

The problem with the sound was my headphones mostly, tested it out again and the voice is overshadowed by the background music in that once the mission starts the background music is a tad loud. Other than that I think I have to have the sound effects turned up a lot too but I do that on normal wc3 as well.

I see. Looks like your music level is tuned way higher than the sound level, then.

 

[jackiechun]

I played through the campaign at least once on both reforged and on the 1.28 client and I couldn't really tell the difference (I didn't compare the final level yet). It seems that perhaps I was wrong there is a difference in difficulty solely due to reforged. The only problem is the bugs I've mentioned earlier. In the process I typed up a small guide to your campaign, do you mind if I post it in this thread? I think I will beat the final level a couple times and then wrap this up and give it a rating. I don't know if there's a way to fix the audio bug of the mission voice not playing for reforged? I guess something about the sound was changed in the game.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I don't know if there's a way to fix the audio bug of the mission voice not playing for reforged? I guess something about the sound was changed in the game.

One of the last patches I did was to split the briefing audio files into sound & music, so that they would play as separate files. I did notice that custom sounds and music play weird or also happen to not play at all in Reforged, but I really have no clue on what's causing it nor how to fix that. I'm sorry.

 

[jackiechun]

My initial thought after struggling with a few of the missions was that the mod was too difficult and I left a comment pointing out in detail some of the levels I had trouble on. Also a technical problem I had playing on Reforged was that the audio briefings don't play at the mission start. The units and level design are very accurate to the original, including priest, conjurors, scorpions, etc, and the hard mode contains a creative series of optional quests which give your units various buffs like dispel or burning oil. Visually this mod is great, and you can tell a lot of work went into crafting it. The map layouts and gameplay are very similar to the original given this is a different game engine (e.g. you can select a dozen units not four in the original). But after playing the entire campaign through on both medium and hard multiple times, talking to the author, and reading this thread, I think I have some insight into why it is the way it is, what exactly is wrong with it, and why I ultimately decided to give 3 stars to what seems, on the surface at least, to be a well-done, voice acted, polished mod of warcraft 1 in the wc3 engine which you would think deserves 5 stars.

Many of the units are overpowered like daemons and catapults (1 shot from a catapult can kill multiple knights). And many of the levels are excessively difficult even on medium mode. For example on mission 7 the orcs suddenly seem to target your priests aggressively when rescuing the peasants, and if you don't do certain tricks like exploring all the routes to your base to reveal the catapults approaching you won't be able to get your own catapults in position to counter them. (Later I realized you can "fakeout" catapults by approaching them at a 45 deg angle. But the first time you play this mission you are typically trading catapults 1 to 1.) There's also a great deal of randomness, e.g. you can send the rescued peasants back to your base but if your army isn't escorting them they can be killed by a raider that got there before you did from the south.

The above paragraph represents several problems with the mod (which of course extend to the rest of it, I'm just using this as an example; if you want more details read mclabel's post or mine in the thread). First, the difficulties should really be "hard" and "brutal", not "medium" and "hard". The author all but admits this by comparing it to Starcraft 2 Brutal Campaign earlier in the thread. Mission 7 also is a sudden jump in difficulty compared to earlier levels. A properly balanced campaign increases in difficulty gradually, it doesn't give you 4 or 5 easy missions then suddenly one where you need an exact build order, good micro, and a few extra tricks to win. The author even admits he made the last hard mission unbeatable for a time period. This is simply bad design. The last level of a game is like the last season of a TV show - it needs to provide a final challenge that logically flows from the previous levels/seasons satisfies the viewer/player emotionally. Making it literally too hard to win is sort of like the equivalent of a tv show that doesn't explain the main mystery or worse insults the viewer by suggesting they don't deserve an ending or that it was all a dream, etc. This leads me to suspect the author wants to recreate the challenging, impossible like feel of the original warcraft 1 as opposed to making it make sense for people playing it right now in wc3.

Second, the "rinse and repeat" like gameplay which is rife in this mod, in this case seeing the orcs target the priests so you have to reset and keep the priests back. Then seeing raiders kill your peasants so you have to reset and escort the peasants carefully. This type of thing was extremely common in games from the 80s/90s where levels could never be completed the first time you played. Instead you died at a place, then reset and used what you learned to get over that place, then you died at a new place and rinse and repeat. E.g. an enemy would hit you too quickly to dodge. So when you restart you just dodge right before you know it's coming. Some say the reason for this was greed, just to get you to play the same game over and over, or perhaps a way to compensate for limited memory ROMs. Or that maybe the game designers were just naive, thinking that they were testing the player's reflexes when really they were just testing your ability to memorize a sequence of moves. The result of this is that what should be a platformer, or a shooter, or a racing game turns into something else: a puzzle game. In a puzzle you literally try different solutions repeatedly until you find one, and then it works everytime. Which in a game about puzzles is fine. But if you overdo it then the "flow" of gameplay is continually interrupted, like a website spamming you with popup ads. And this type of thing is especially jarring in an RTS like this where not only are you remaking and rebuilding your entire base on every playthrough, but half the time the obstacle to be overcome is random. Like the computer might suddenly send 3 catapults at you on the last mission in one of the waves and now it's basically a probability whether or not you can snipe all of them before they wipe you out. Indeed if you watch Jayborino's videos from the thread he has to save state constantly. Games that require save-stating to beat are either designed that way on purpose as part of the genre (like kaizos), or else bad design.

I haven't said much here that is original, several other reviewers have said similar things (much less politely than me!). A few examples:
"Final mission on "Hard" is FUCKING INSANE, it took me 2 hours to beat "Main Quest". And around 1000 or quick saves/loads..." "I also don't remember in wc1 where enemy would stack up and spawn daemons and sent multiple catapult , great design but map is too frustrating rather challenging I wouldn't recommend this to any non-veteran wc3 players"

What I noticed reading the thread is that the author defends himself by either citing the Jayborino videos (which by using save-states decreases the fun factor), or else argues that he is recreating the difficult feel of warcraft 1. Quote:

"I just copied their first, legendary game, as accurately as it was possible, and that is where you have to base your judgement on."

The problem with this is that elsewhere he contradicts himself by saying he wants something on the level of Brutal Starcraft 2, to the point of even making the medium/normal mode excessively difficult and annoying in some places. And if you bring up this objection he says the original wc1 was like that. The problem is that that is bad game design, especially in an RTS where you are putting in a lot of effort to build your base and forces right at the start and having to repeat that every time you restart. But it also affects the RPG levels too; I had a tough time enjoying the secret mission with Lothar due to having to reload several times where I would realize if I don't have the conjuror I can't proceed. Here something like a hint would be useful, say a note saying be careful not to lose this guy. Some more dialogue with maybe a peasant or the orcs would have made it more entertaining really. Because after restarting for the 4th, 5th, or 7th time you start to lose that momentum and the game just stops being fun and starts to feel more like a chore.

So should you play this game? If you care about challenge above everything else, even common sense or enjoyability, then yes absolutely (but then why play this instead of some old NES title like Gauntlet, which punishes you for the sake of punishment?). If you're looking for warcraft 1 in the wc3 engine, then you should only play if you're comfortable using cheat codes or save states (or both). I regret having to give this 3 stars because the author has obviously put a lot of time, effort, and creativity into this and made a visually appealing recreation of Warcraft 1. Further he has also generously supported it with updates and fixes. However I don't believe he will make any changes to the game as is, which is unfortunate because this is a good mod that could have been great.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

First off thank you for the feedback and the time you spent in elaborating your message.
I never advised to play with Reforged, because I know there are bugs of any kind, even errors in some script readings, which would instead work in the versions specified. The faulty audios is just one of these bugs.

Many of the units are overpowered like daemons and catapults (1 shot from a catapult can kill multiple knights).

Yeah, and again, it's not my fault. It's not something that I felt like changing, because this was meant to be a 1 to 1 recreation, in the limits of what the World Editor can offer. Alas, some people whims and want all units to be costless, or stuff like that. I mean, are they serious?? I wonder what's next...

For example on mission 7 the orcs suddenly seem to target your priests aggressively when rescuing the peasants, and if you don't do certain tricks like exploring all the routes to your base to reveal the catapults approaching you won't be able to get your own catapults in position to counter them. (Later I realized you can "fakeout" catapults by approaching them at a 45 deg angle. But the first time you play this mission you are typically trading catapults 1 to 1.) There's also a great deal of randomness, e.g. you can send the rescued peasants back to your base but if your army isn't escorting them they can be killed by a raider that got there before you did from the south.

Yeah, the cpu in the original Warcraft used to train units right away and send them randomly through one of the three pathways to your base, so you had to act quickly in rescuing the Peasants and take them back. Not to mention the official bug where all enemy units attack you en-masse after you rescue the Peasants, here absent.

Indeed if you watch Jayborino's videos from the thread he has to save state constantly.

Well, first off, he was playing the Hard Mode(or Brutal, whatever you wanna call it), second, I don't see any problems in saving, whether constantly or sporadically. All players play differently.

What I noticed reading the thread is that the author defends himself by either citing the Jayborino videos

His videos are a proof that the remake, and in particular its Hard Mode, is not impossible. Also, he started it from scratch, warmed up and built up his APMs, which is what's really needed for the Hard Mode. Warcraft 1 was slower in pace, so the player had virtually more time to think. A friend of mine used to slow down the game speed to be able to keep up. Again, not all players are the same.

"I just copied their first, legendary game, as accurately as it was possible, and that is where you have to base your judgement on."

...and the Normal Mode is its reflection.

The problem with this is that elsewhere he contradicts himself by saying he wants something on the level of Brutal Starcraft 2

This is a reference to the Hard mode, of course, so no contradiction.

I had a tough time enjoying the secret mission with Lothar due to having to reload several times where I would realize if I don't have the conjuror I can't proceed. Here something like a hint would be useful, say a note saying be careful not to lose this guy.

I don't recall the existence of such a parameter as the Conjurer having to survive in the first Lothar map. I know I made it so that if you prevent him from dying he'll follow you in the next map, but nothing such as "He needs to survive". Could you clarify this?

Some more dialogue with maybe a peasant or the orcs would have made it more entertaining really. Because after restarting for the 4th, 5th, or 7th time you start to lose that momentum and the game just stops being fun and starts to feel more like a chore.

What dialogues now? I don't understand.

I haven't said much here that is original, several other reviewers have said similar things (much less politely than me!). A few examples:
"Final mission on "Hard" is FUCKING INSANE, it took me 2 hours to beat "Main Quest". And around 1000 or quick saves/loads..." "I also don't remember in wc1 where enemy would stack up and spawn daemons and sent multiple catapult , great design but map is too frustrating rather challenging I wouldn't recommend this to any non-veteran wc3 players"

Anyone can say whatever TF they want. They're the ones playing this thing FOR FREE, for which I spent over 8 years of my life.
I stopped ever touching again this remake for how little flexible it is. I can't and I won't play it on Reforged to see how fucked up it can get, even though I'm pretty sure there's some oversight in how Reforged reads script from old World Editor's versions, hence it can also mean that AI scripts between day and night get stacked, resulting in them working together, or maybe working even in Normal Mode instead of only Hard, etc. anything can be. I refuse to believe that people are coming after me to complain how difficult this game is.
Everything worked at the time I published this. I beat it, in both modes(Sorry again for the prank about the last mission unbeatable in Hard Mode), hence it is playable and doable. The meta of the ranged troops always works, as in the original game. It changes when Catapults get into play, then it becomes a matter of kiting them out (the AI can only build 2 of them at a time, except in final missions, where every town is a separate player).

 

[jackiechun]

I'm not sure how to use the multi-quote so I'll just use the block quote button.

Yeah, the cpu in the original Warcraft used to train units right away and send them randomly through one of the three pathways to your base, so you had to act quickly in rescuing the Peasants and take them back. Not to mention the official bug where all enemy units attack you en-masse after you rescue the Peasants, here absent.

While that would be realistic it would probably not be fun for the player!

Well, first off, he was playing the Hard Mode(or Brutal, whatever you wanna call it), second, I don't see any problems in saving, whether constantly or sporadically. All players play differently.

I believe in the last mission he had to switch back to the medium mode to complete it but yes it's true he played on the harder mode. I'm also not opposed to save-stating ever - in fact I'm a fan of kaizo mario mods where the game is intentionally made difficult to the point that you have to save-state constantly. However I recognize that 1) it's a very niche genre and 2) for reasons I outlined it doesn't fit RTS very well due to the base building mechanics. If you feel it's fine then that's your decision but my intuition in an RTS is that save-stating should be used rarely if at all, like maybe one time to get past a really tough battle or something. Save-stating basically hurts the "flow" for want of a better word.

His videos are a proof that the remake, and in particular its Hard Mode, is not impossible. Also, he started it from scratch, warmed up and built up his APMs, which is what's really needed for the Hard Mode. Warcraft 1 was slower in pace, so the player had virtually more time to think. A friend of mine used to slow down the game speed to be able to keep up. Again, not all players are the same.

Right, but I don't think I'm that atypical of a wc3 player and it's generally wc3 players who are going to be the audience. I understand wanting to make medium mode challenging, I just think it's a bit too challenging. For example in most RTS campaigns the intention of putting easy levels first is to teach you tricks you need to know later on when the levels are tougher. But I didn't figure out this "zig-zag at 45 degrees" trick for the catapults until I had already beaten the campaign once. If it was the original ROC campaign it would probably have said some hint to that effect, or in the quest dialog say "hey use knights to take down the catapults". But it feels like most of the challenge in the early levels is like figuring out the exact number of peasants you need to build on the first mission until you can't build a footman or something.

I don't recall the existence of such a parameter as the Conjurer having to survive in the first Lothar map. I know I made it so that if you prevent him from dying he'll follow you in the next map, but nothing such as "He needs to survive". Could you clarify this?

What dialogues now? I don't understand.

I guess technically you could cheese the entire level with shockwave. But assuming that's not the intent, you need to beat a fortified position at the end of the level with a catapult. The only ways I can think of are to use your own catapult or else the conjuror's fire spell. But the easiest way to get the catapult is with the conjuror's fire spell, and I lost him several times fighting the big group of enemies in the northeast corner of the map. So eventually I realized I had to research the archer upgrade, put the conjuror in the back, and then use that fire spell in concert with Lothar to breach the defenders and get the catapult. If there is a way to get past the chokepoint where the cpu has a catapult I didn't see it.

I suggested more dialogue since it's an RPG mission and has the conjuror greeting you when you rescue him. So it felt like it should more of an RPG-ish mission like the first level of the ROC human campaign where you're actively talking and each person you meet at least says something. Like maybe Lothar could say "I have a bad feeling about this..." right before the daemon attacks. Or the orc spearman by the catapult could say "If you want our catapult you'll have to get through us!" Which also doubles as letting you know the reward for busting past them. Anyway it was just a thought, again I'm comparing to the original ROC campaign when I thought this.

Anyone can say whatever TF they want. They're the ones playing this thing FOR FREE, for which I spent over 8 years of my life.
I stopped ever touching again this remake for how little flexible it is. I can't and I won't play it on Reforged to see how fucked up it can get, even though I'm pretty sure there's some oversight in how Reforged reads script from old World Editor's versions, hence it can also mean that AI scripts between day and night get stacked, resulting in them working together, or maybe working even in Normal Mode instead of only Hard, etc. anything can be. I refuse to believe that people are coming after me to complain how difficult this game is.

I understand that Reforged was a big disaster and insult to the fans, and I didn't really care for it personally art-wise. But the reality is that most players are going to be using the Reforged client. Now based on my own testing I don't think there is a difference between the Reforged client and yours in gameplay. The only difference I could see was the quest dialogue audio not working. Maybe in the future people will revert to playing 1.28 and forget Reforged existed. But whether we like it or not that's what most players are using now. If you could somehow fix the quest audio not playing then I think it would be fine in Reforged.

Everything worked at the time I published this. I beat it, in both modes(Sorry again for the prank about the last mission unbeatable in Hard Mode), hence it is playable and doable. The meta of the ranged troops always works, as in the original game. It changes when Catapults get into play, then it becomes a matter of kiting them out (the AI can only build 2 of them at a time, except in final missions, where every town is a separate player).

Haha that explains it! There were a few times on the last level that I just had to reset because I saw the cpu was sending daemons AND 3 catapults at me and I had lost all of mine. So at that point I just had to reset. On the topic of the last level I also tried attacking the two support bases. But I realized if I tried mining through the trees at the bottom there were just too many to chop through to get to the east base. And if I tried clearing out all the orcs just standing around it didn't really matter. By the time I cleared them out the attack waves were almost ready and I was just fighting the swarm of enemies in the middle of the map instead of next to my buildings.

I beat it, in both modes

I personally agree that this is the way games should be designed and so I can't really fault you for it. As I said I wrote my review from my perspective as a wc3 player so that's how I see it.


Do you mind if I post my notes/walkthrough guide in this thread? I doubt I can come up with anything for the last mission but for missions 1-11 I came up with builds I think are probably good enough. Again props for all the work you put into this. I might even finish the orc campaign if i'm in the mood for a brutal challenge. But when I write a review I try to be as honest as possible and tell it like I experience it as a wc3 player, not a wc2 or any other kind of player.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

While that would be realistic it would probably not be fun for the player!

Yeah, tell me about it! It felt weird even for me that it was present in the original game. It was an obvious oversight, which got taken off later. I don't recall it being present in the version I played as a kid, though.

I believe in the last mission he had to switch back to the medium mode to complete

Yes, because the final map on Hard was "unbeatable" at the time.

1) it's a very niche genre

It was, at the time, but many big titles actually were. It was 1994.

2) for reasons I outlined it doesn't fit RTS very well due to the base building mechanics.

I don't understand what you mean with "base building mechanics".

I guess technically you could cheese the entire level with shockwave. But assuming that's not the intent, you need to beat a fortified position at the end of the level with a catapult. The only ways I can think of are to use your own catapult or else the conjuror's fire spell.

There was a buggy ability on Lothar, which I had to replace with Shockwave. That, the Catapult and the potential Rain of Fire from the Conjurer are three viable variables into the mix. Remember that there is no permanent Fog of War, so you can also scout ahead with summoned Scorpions if you don't want to use Archers. Let's assume you lose the Catapult and the Conjurer and you are at the block with enemy walls, Spearmen and the Catapult. Scout quickly with Archers and get back so that they have explored enough and can get healed by the Clerics(or did you lose Clerics as well??), then target the walls with the archers, so that their Spearmen advance and you kill them. If you need to get some hits while having to dodge the Catapult boulders your Clerics from behind should help. At that point, with the Blacksmith, you should've already researched upgraded Shields, so the Archers should be able to tank more hits. Repeat the same with the Warlock encounter above, and then again with the Daemon encounter. Jayborino didn't lose a SINGLE unit in this map because he played cautiously and thought there was a hidden carryover like in the first secret Orc mission, otherwise he could even have played the map without loading save states. But again, even if you lose everything, Lothar is the last resort before a scenario loss, so Shockwave may come in handy if there isn't anything else that may work from distance.

I suggested more dialogue since it's an RPG mission and has the conjuror greeting you when you rescue him. So it felt like it should more of an RPG-ish mission like the first level of the ROC human campaign where you're actively talking and each person you meet at least says something.

I wanted to keep the game as concise as possible, like the original. Story plot was plain, and didn't explain anything deeper about Orcs & Humans, unless you read the manual, which I never cared about as a kid. Games didn't have a tutorial back then. I was used to RPGs, so when I first opened the very first Human map, I thought the Peasant was the hero(he had some fierce expression) and the Footmen around him were disposable goons(with typical anonymous faces)...
The Orc campaign remake has way more dialogues, actually, probably because it was the second campaign that I've remade and it inspired me with the Griselda conspiracy and the random Fire Elemental, who became the literal pillar for the design of the secret missions.

I understand that Reforged was a big disaster and insult to the fans, and I didn't really care for it personally art-wise. But the reality is that most players are going to be using the Reforged client.

But I've specified that, and it even says it on the contents section: "Recommended version1.24a - 1.28c". We live in an age where computers can have Terabytes of data storage space, so it wouldn't hurt if you get a separate Warcraft 3 copy of the game(which you can easily get even in this site) in a separate folder. As long as you have the original Warcraft 3 you can run that too.

Now based on my own testing I don't think there is a difference between the Reforged client and yours in gameplay. The only difference I could see was the quest dialogue audio not working.

Well, you may don't think there is a difference, but there is, and it's a big one, both in terms of creating custom content than in playing it.

If you could somehow fix the quest audio not playing then I think it would be fine in Reforged.

See? This is what you can't seem to get. I can't fix something that works. It works in the suggested versions, but not in Reforged. The game started to be problematic ever since 1.29 dropped. Reforged only worsened it even further.

I wrote my review from my perspective as a wc3 player so that's how I see it.

...and as such, you should understand even more why you need to have a good APM, regardless of the game or the difficulty you're playing.

Do you mind if I post my notes/walkthrough guide in this thread? I doubt I can come up with anything for the last mission but for missions 1-11 I came up with builds I think are probably good enough.

I do mind, so no, don't bother. Thanks.

as a wc3 player, not a wc2 or any other kind of player.

Again, is really not that huge in gap. They're the same game, only with different pace of action. Warcraft 3 has units with large amount of health and slower attacks, so it gives you more time to react and cast spells. Warcraft 2 has less of all of that. Warcraft 1 even less(but not that much) than Warcraft 2.

By the way: The entire footage of Jayborino is a proof not only that the remake is beatable, but also that it doesn't contain bugs, because he played it on the correct version.

 

[jackiechun]

I don't understand what you mean with "base building mechanics".

In RTS there is a principle of maximizing earlier action efficiency because they matter most. (If you build 5 footmen and the last one is delayed by 10 seconds it doesn't matter. But delaying the first one by that much delays every other footman by 10 seconds as well.) So you have to do a lot of building and constructing in the first 2-3 minutes and it has to be fast for maximum efficiency. So the entire time I was playing your mod I was doing those actions repeatedly until the point it became almost muscle memory. Add in the fact of I had to slightly change the build order depending on what units I wanted first and it quickly became a huge deal!

There was a buggy ability on Lothar, which I had to replace with Shockwave. That, the Catapult and the potential Rain of Fire from the Conjurer are three viable variables into the mix. Remember that there is no permanent Fog of War, so you can also scout ahead with summoned Scorpions if you don't want to use Archers. Let's assume you lose the Catapult and the Conjurer and you are at the block with enemy walls, Spearmen and the Catapult. Scout quickly with Archers and get back so that they have explored enough and can get healed by the Clerics(or did you lose Clerics as well??), then target the walls with the archers, so that their Spearmen advance and you kill them. If you need to get some hits while having to dodge the Catapult boulders your Clerics from behind should help. At that point, with the Blacksmith, you should've already researched upgraded Shields, so the Archers should be able to tank more hits. Repeat the same with the Warlock encounter above, and then again with the Daemon encounter. Jayborino didn't lose a SINGLE unit in this map because he played cautiously and thought there was a hidden carryover like in the first secret Orc mission, otherwise he could even have played the map without loading save states. But again, even if you lose everything, Lothar is the last resort before a scenario loss, so Shockwave may come in handy if there isn't anything else that may work from distance.

I'm not sure what you mean by tanking, the catapult kills multiple units instantly in one hit. I guess it might be possible to dodge if you take out the spearmen first, but I haven't tried this. I'm still in the middle of the 2nd bonus map so maybe I'll take a look.

Well, you may don't think there is a difference, but there is, and it's a big one, both in terms of creating custom content than in playing it.

See? This is what you can't seem to get. I can't fix something that works. It works in the suggested versions, but not in Reforged. The game started to be problematic ever since 1.29 dropped. Reforged only worsened it even further.

I meant in the sense that I played through the hard campaign twice. once on 1.28 and once on reforged looking for any differences I could find. and I couldn't find any obvious ones other than what I said. So that's a good sign. But if you don't want to support it at all that's of course up to you.

...and as such, you should understand even more why you need to have a good APM, regardless of the game or the difficulty you're playing.

Of course, I agree with this.

By the way: The entire footage of Jayborino is a proof not only that the remake is beatable, but also that it doesn't contain bugs, because he played it on the correct version.

It's not about beating it per se, but about how you beat it. I think we just have different philosophies or views on game design, or maybe that since this wc1 mod is your first one you're very attached to it and feel like attacks on it are a personal attack. That's why I beat the mod multiple times and looked at it from as many angles as I could before making my review. I agree with this by the way, anybody reading this thread just watch the Jayborino videos a bit and if you like that style of play then sure go for it, it is very similar to how I would play if I was using save-states, I just don't find save-stating to be fun.

 

[LordPerenolde II]

I'm not sure what you mean by tanking, the catapult kills multiple units instantly in one hit. I guess it might be possible to dodge if you take out the spearmen first, but I haven't tried this. I'm still in the middle of the 2nd bonus map so maybe I'll take a look.

Tanking the Spearmen hits, of course.

It's not about beating it per se, but about how you beat it.

Still, it didn't show bugs of any kind.

I played through the hard campaign twice. once on 1.28 and once on reforged looking for any differences I could find. and I couldn't find any obvious ones other than what I said.

Are custom sounds and musics still bugging in your 1.28?