Is Terran balanced?

[PurplePoot]

I know what is wrong with TvZ and it is more balanced than people think. The problem is that there is a few-minute window in which Zerg is very vulnerable, and then for the rest of the game they're totally fine. Pros are good at hitting that few-minute window; we mere mortals are not and most of the TvZ whining by average players is simply justifying their losses.

Yes, it needs to be fixed. No, it is not necessarily imbalance rather than metagame. No, it does not really affect most players.

 

[doombringer]

I know what is wrong with TvZ and it is more balanced than people think. The problem is that there is a few-minute window in which Zerg is very vulnerable, and then for the rest of the game they're totally fine. Pros are good at hitting that few-minute window; we mere mortals are not and most of the TvZ whining by average players is simply justifying their losses.

Yes, it needs to be fixed. No, it is not necessarily imbalance rather than metagame. No, it does not really affect most players.

This "few minute window" is actully just about all game as Zerg not only have to react to whatever the terran player is doing but terrans are far more capable of defending against any counterattack the zerg due to mech and wall in.

I suggest you watch the TLO vs MadFrog Showmatch where despite losing his entire army to a perfect surround the terran managed to defend and continue harassment and hard countering everything the zerg tried.

Mules make the terrans far superior late game while their variety of harassment techniques (drops, hellions, reapers, cloaked banshee's, bunker rushes etc) compared to zerg early game (speedlings or banelings) make Terrans not only better at early game but also lategame as if the zerg doesn't react perfectly they lose.

Current to play zerg you have to rely on your opponent's mistakes far more than your own skill.

 

[PurplePoot]

Have you ever heard of Hive tech? I hear it destroys pretty much every Terran unit in the game, and combined with Zerg's tech switching rate Terran melts.

Hell, go watch the long IdrA vs drewbie game from recently where IdrA was bming the entire time. IdrA played like a retard (ramming ultras into 200/200 army + bunkers + pf rather than containing into broodlords or some other non-suicidal tactic) and still easily won because he abused the fact that mech is just too immobile to stop Zerg from expanding everywhere once Ultras are out.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Why would you have both less thors and less tanks?

Anyhow, I'll go no thors all tanks and beat either of those strategies, thanks. TvT is Tank/Viking with occasional Marauders and then possibly Battlecruisers late game, all of which (except Vikings obviously) obliterate Thors.

Edit: I should clarify that I am still happy to play some TvT with you if you disagree and are on the North American server.

We could measure skill in bo5 ;> but I'm on Europe naturally. Just as soon as they add cross-realm. I got sc2 recently but today or tomorrow I finally start playing a lot, cause obviously here many do play a lot even those who play for fun.

I will admit, in TvT I could use a better idea than adding thors. As I said, a game starts tanks+marines but when he adds thors, I also start doing thors which might be wrong. I've had a game where I had I think 11 tanks and some vikings vs 8-9 thors and by the time the thors reached me, the tanks destroyed almost all so maybe is better to not do thors, I wasnt fan of it either. I have to watch some recent replays, someone adding thors in late is not smth you see in top replays, in the same way I responded with my own counter, though maybe you're right about not using thors vs thors, but then only siege tanks remain, BC arent good to use if he has vikingsand thors. Otherwise BC and tanks vs pure thors will rape, I agree. I'll show you a replay if I happen to lose like that.

 

[PurplePoot]

You only start using BCs when you can produce as many Vikings as them as well as BCs (as in they're a game ender when you're in the advantage).

 

[doombringer]

Have you ever heard of Hive tech? I hear it destroys pretty much every Terran unit in the game, and combined with Zerg's tech switching rate Terran melts.

Hell, go watch the long IdrA vs drewbie game from recently where IdrA was bming the entire time. IdrA played like a retard (ramming ultras into 200/200 army + bunkers + pf rather than containing into broodlords or some other non-suicidal tactic) and still easily won because he abused the fact that mech is just too immobile to stop Zerg from expanding everywhere once Ultras are out.

Yeh this would be good if only hive tech didn't take long to tech to than any other races tier 3. not only is lair tech initially delayed because of queen but even once hive is reached you have to wait for greater spire & morph time to get out broodlords (not to mention that terran have nearly total air domination if they decide to swap to starport as reacor viking with 9 range can strafe corruptor like forever) and Ultras while I admit are great versus mech they take so long to get/build that the terran can easily push if they are scouting at all.

yes while hive tech is great in theory the time and gas it takes to invest in it leaves you incredibly valnerable to any kind of mech push.

 

[PurplePoot]

Then go for Lair before Queen. Also, Mutalisks crush Vikings in every way it is possible to crush Vikings.

--

I am not addressing Mech timing pushes; I realize Zerg has trouble with them. I am addressing late game mech.

 

[doombringer]

if you go lair before queen there is no way your macro can keep up as you would only be able to create 1 unit every 10 seconds per hatchery without larva injection.

I realize that hive tech is definatly good versus mech but it is nearly immpossible to to actully get to late game versus mech. Also while i do love owning vikings with mutas, thors rape them so hard that it is nearly impossible to use them to protect your beauitful brood lords from vikings with their ridiculous 9 range.

Also is it just me or do Ultras seem to melt away incredibly fast?

 

[mrzwach]

(might disrupt the very balanced and intense ZvZ)

you are talking as if ZvZ is not completely retarded, atm it is the most broken racial matchup.

obviously it is balanced because it is the same race vs the same race, but it sure as hell isn't fun.

This "few minute window" is actully just about all game as Zerg not only have to react to whatever the terran player is doing but terrans are far more capable of defending against any counterattack the zerg due to mech and wall in.

The "few minute window" is defined as the time between when your first drone gets shot the fuck up until when you pop an overseer/get overlord speed. If that lasts all game, then you are bad. :|

Mules make the terrans far superior late game

If you do not have more bases than the terran player late game, you are not playing zerg right.

 

[Dr Super Good]

A terran player can not go both air and mech effectivly at the same time early on. If he is air he has to upgrade air, and if mech he has to upgrade mech. Upgrading both, especially at the same time, will result in a huge loss of resources which would allow a zerg player a window to attack cause the terran player is having to hold back troop production for the techs.

You could look at it as the first 2 upgrades = 1-2 units, next 2 are 2-3 units and the final are atleast 3-4 units worth so upgrading them all sets the terran back over 6 units per branch. Going both mech and air is a setback of 12 units worth.

Although the yield from the techs makes up for it or the cost does not mater at 200/200 it does set you back early game cause if you stayed in only one branch you would have more troops. This is not counting the fact that you will need to produce 2-4 starports with reactors or techlabs which is another 4 or more troops behind.

What is important is you have enough Air to air potential (vikings) to discourage the enemy from constructing broodlords if you are going mech however built vikings are totally usless against ground units so you are making yourself more at risk to zerg land forces (ultralisks, speedlings etc). It comes down to a battle of wits to make sure that you only can counter if present to counter.

 

[Adiktuz]

well I guess it depends on your perception and on the skills of all players... since all you need is a good strategy against your opponent, since its a strategy game... so it will always come down to you skills and mastery of the race you pick and the skills and mastery of your opponents...

personally I find terran easy to use since I only use terran ever since, and when I tried zerg I got smashed bigtime... havent tried protoss yet... and I love the drop-off capability of the terran command center...

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I hope some of the No-es are just a mistake thinking the question is 'is Terran OP'.

 

[PurplePoot]

if you go lair before queen there is no way your macro can keep up as you would only be able to create 1 unit every 10 seconds per hatchery without larva injection.

I realize that hive tech is definatly good versus mech but it is nearly immpossible to to actully get to late game versus mech. Also while i do love owning vikings with mutas, thors rape them so hard that it is nearly impossible to use them to protect your beauitful brood lords from vikings with their ridiculous 9 range.

Also is it just me or do Ultras seem to melt away incredibly fast?

You realize that one unit every ten seconds is fast compared to the other races, right? Also, I find it funny that you are saying that your current approach doesn't work, but you can't change it because your current approach is the only way, when the change addresses the issue which plagues TvZ (scouting issues).

Last I checked Zerg in SC1 could go for a fast 1hatch or 2hatch lair and they didn't have Queens. You're way too spoiled these days.

 

[kola]

there is one thing that if you use it well is very unbalanced in TvZ. I've seen my bro (Zerg player) play against msv (terran player). And msv was just spamming Reapers at the start. It was pretty impossible to counter that for a zerg. If the zerg player is able to survive to this, the terran player has expended, has More ressources and has lots of barrack so he can spam Marauders or marines and kill zerg player. (Btw, they played a lot of games, not only 1)

 

[tagg1080]

there is one thing that if you use it well is very unbalanced in TvZ. I've seen my bro (Zerg player) play against msv (terran player). And msv was just spamming Reapers at the start. It was pretty impossible to counter that for a zerg. If the zerg player is able to survive to this, the terran player has expended, has More ressources and has lots of barrack so he can spam Marauders or marines and kill zerg player. (Btw, they played a lot of games, not only 1)

Speedlings + Creep

 

[HINDYhat]

Queens on creep are great against reapers, and you can hold off enough with those until you get speedlings or something else.

 

[PurplePoot]

Yeah, 3rax reaper seems pretty rigged in TvZ right now.

--

tagg, HINDY, it's a legitimate complaint and your suggestions don't work.

 

[doombringer]

A terran player can not go both air and mech effectivly at the same time early on. If he is air he has to upgrade air, and if mech he has to upgrade mech. Upgrading both, especially at the same time, will result in a huge loss of resources which would allow a zerg player a window to attack cause the terran player is having to hold back troop production for the techs.

You could look at it as the first 2 upgrades = 1-2 units, next 2 are 2-3 units and the final are atleast 3-4 units worth so upgrading them all sets the terran back over 6 units per branch. Going both mech and air is a setback of 12 units worth.

Although the yield from the techs makes up for it or the cost does not mater at 200/200 it does set you back early game cause if you stayed in only one branch you would have more troops. This is not counting the fact that you will need to produce 2-4 starports with reactors or techlabs which is another 4 or more troops behind.

What is important is you have enough Air to air potential (vikings) to discourage the enemy from constructing broodlords if you are going mech however built vikings are totally usless against ground units so you are making yourself more at risk to zerg land forces (ultralisks, speedlings etc). It comes down to a battle of wits to make sure that you only can counter if present to counter.

you forgot to factor in thors which due to splash and 10 range! dominate mutas and while broodlord are good versus thors/mech in general 6-8 vikings greatly reduce there effectivness are are unable to be counter effectivly due to thors protecting the vikings versus mutas.

Terran only need to invest a small amount into air to their mech force to shut down zerg's potential counter. Also 1-2 vikings early game can both force overinvestment in overlords to prevent supply cap and potential high ground harras mineral harrasment such as on kulus ravine natraul expanion.

The Terrans not only have arguably the strongest 200/200 army but also the greatest variety of harrasment techniques any of which can ruin the zerg's economy which is required to tech to counter mech.

EDIT: just thinking about this some more and maybe if they buff neural parasite so it wasn't just 12 seconds it would help balance ZvT.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I find reapers useful only vs protoss. Zerg can counter them so easily just as soon as he gets roaches fast and that happens like all the time. TvT I won't even comment them.

 

[Mooglefrooglian]

Everything is fine. People whine because they suck. The only thing I know of which might have something to it is early terran mech builds. Apparently Zerg don't like those or something.

But no, everything is perfect. Although I would go for some queen autocast on spawn larva.

 

[doombringer]

Everything is fine. People whine because they suck. The only thing I know of which might have something to it is early terran mech builds. Apparently Zerg don't like those or something.

But no, everything is perfect. Although I would go for some queen autocast on spawn larva.

Oh so everything is fine when professional player are swapping to Terran due to being unable to make a living off playing zerg?

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Oh so everything is fine when professional player are swapping to Terran due to being unable to make a living off playing zerg?

The only news about a player switching to Terran is Dimaga. What is so imba about terran tell me? Damage, aoe? As if they didn't nerf tanks in beta, they didn't nerf a bit thor's damage? Or Hellions kill zerglings too much? For not known players, dont even give them as an example, 1 pro player switching means nothing. Look even the considered not as good, IdrA from the US servers remains zerg, though I must say he may be having more potential than Dimaga. He did reach the final on one past event vs WhiteRa.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=6037994 - Some funny quotes by some Wall-of-text thread starter claiming everything Terran does is imba, everything Zerg does is too weak ROFL

 

[Unknown Goblin]

Jah, terran is a bit imba, but I agree that people who whine about terran imba are mostly just trying to find an excuse for their losses. Starcraft 2 is really quite well balanced compared to, say, dawn of war.

That said, they could certainly do with a nerf here and there. Perhaps a price increase on concussive shells, some kind of nerf to siege tanks, and especially EMP is way over the top. But then I have to admit that charged void rays are rather over the top as well. (I play protoss)

Can't say I like the OP though. If you want a fair and balanced (see what I did there?) discussion, make the OP neutral instead of going "Terran is fine and everybody who disagrees with me is a retard so tell me what you think."

 

[HINDYhat]

Yeah, 3rax reaper seems pretty rigged in TvZ right now.

--

tagg, HINDY, it's a legitimate complaint and your suggestions don't work.

Oh, okay. I think I saw that build used a couple times by LzGaMeR and it looked powerful.

 

[mrzwach]

Oh so everything is fine when professional player are swapping to Terran due to being unable to make a living off playing zerg?

Mostly everything fine at the lower levels (except for quick mech pushes, i guess maybe), its mostly at the professional level where there are serious problems.

Also, "I wouldnt play Terran cuz i have selfrespect" -IdrA

 

[kola]

I find reapers useful only vs protoss. Zerg can counter them so easily just as soon as he gets roaches fast and that happens like all the time. TvT I won't even comment them.

well msv is pro terran and was using it against zergs. dont know if he changed his technic....

 

[PurplePoot]

Mostly everything fine at the lower levels (except for quick mech pushes, i guess maybe), its mostly at the professional level where there are serious problems.

Also, "I wouldnt play Terran cuz i have selfrespect" -IdrA

The funniest part of that quote is that it was from a game where IdrA played like a retard and still was carried to victory by hive tech.

 

[kewlthis]

I dont know if terran is balanced/unbalanced, but at one map you could say its fucking bullshit....Terrans could make vikings and fly to a place where they can attack my exp, but I cant attack vikings cause the place they are is blocked with rocks....I think that is a really bad joke. With any other race that would be quite impossible to do. No point in using nudys worm or warp prism like that....

and 2xIn a row iv matched up with platinium players....im still in bronze, whats up with that?

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Currently hot argues with the OP of the thread at TL and some other supporter. I know I do not have strong positions when arguing with skilled, maybe more than me, one of them may be Asian, but I'm also not a spring chicken with all the years of playing, replays and such.

He's just saying all terran has is imba, all zerg has is weak. Hello? Wait, name same issues, not saying all terran does is too powerful. Blizzard always reads LONG TL THREADS when making patches. Expect a terran nerf in a patch soon..

You know lalush? Some Swedish player, from the very good, he made a long crythread at TL how in SC1 units could move and attack and there's no such here. He was implying on Corsairs. Shortly after that Blizzard released the patch where Phoenix attacks and moves. No comment.

 

[StormWarriors2]

Really? terrans have a problem too. Zerg and protoss can rush. Can terran rush? no. Plus zerg all they need are scourages. (why blizzard why did you get rid of them!)

 

[mrzwach]

You know lalush? Some Swedish player, from the very good, he made a long crythread at TL how in SC1 units could move and attack and there's no such here. He was implying on Corsairs. Shortly after that Blizzard released the patch where Phoenix attacks and moves. No comment.

Well, they made phoenixes actually useful that way. Is that a problem?

Also, early terran mech pushes vs zerg are imba (ie before hivetech hits). Don't deny it, you'll make yourself look stupid. :\

 

[StormWarriors2]

me? Well. I find roach spam and baneling attacks are devastating.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Well, they made phoenixes actually useful that way. Is that a problem?

Also, early terran mech pushes vs zerg are imba (ie before hivetech hits). Don't deny it, you'll make yourself look stupid. :\

No, phoenix isnt a problem. You didnt see my point which is - some good player does a long thread on TL, he may not be pro, but if long enough, Blizzard will see it and make a new patch out of it. Very sure there will be a terran nerf patch soon.

Again missed the point - it is not that there isn't anything that may be strong vs zerg, it is that you can't say all terran has is imba, all zerg has is weak as in that TL thread.

It would be also completely retarded of someone to post bigger nerfs than those I offer here. I will quote myself from TL, these are even too big but I dont mind playing with them:

- Make units move in an army - with distance between them, same was in war3 and SC1 I think, not a meat ball (the 1 good point of the OP)
- Resource requirements like +25 more Gas on Techlab
- Later Tier for Thor (upgrade or requires Fusion Core)
- Later Tier Tank (requires Armory)

 

[PurplePoot]

I should hope there will be a balance change patch, but the issue is that affecting one matchup will change the others, and regardless of peoples' differing opinions on TvZ, TvP and ZvP are quite balanced.

 

[Zorga]

I'm a medium Terran player, playing in the Gold League.

I'd say Terran are balanced. It is true that in TvZ , even when the Zerg players army is superior and the Zerg players has more expansions, the Terran player can win due to a good wall-in, and superior lategame units. But that is only versus Zerg players that don't switch their builds late-game.

If the Zerg player does switch build, then he often wins the match because the Terran player takes more time to build his units and doesn't have time to throw in a good counter.

The Zerg player often tend to forgets about Roaches in the early-game, and then the Ultralisks late-game.'

Ultralisks are devastating versus Terran! Especially with some AA support

Perhaps TvZ needs a minor fix, but it is nothing major.

TvP is balanced, if anything i would say the protoss have the advantage. 4-Gate or 3- Gate-Robo is always hard for the terran player to push back. And the Toss has perfect counters. HT against Marines and Marauders and Immortals against Tanks and Thor's.

I'd say Zealots/Stalkers/Sentries are as strong as Marine/Marauder and if and when the Toss player keeps warping in units, it is really hard to push back.

And lets not forget that if the toss manages to rush you unprepared with a voidray, and you fail to have enough Marines/Turrents/Vikings then you often lose.

TvZ might need a minor fix, but Terran is not OP in any respect!

 

[Falconeye]

I shudder when I'm playing a favored terran player (I'm zerg).. But I can usually hold my own and win against most terrans. The real question here is are zerg balanced and the answer is no. We have very few effective unit choices, especially in the beginning.

I mean before tier 2 we have zerglings and roaches really. Don't get me started on all the things terrans can choose before tier 2. With terran you can almost always find a hard counter to any army composition, with zerg, not so much.

Although I do love those mutalisks :/

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

I should hope there will be a balance change patch, but the issue is that affecting one matchup will change the others, and regardless of peoples' differing opinions on TvZ, TvP and ZvP are quite balanced.

Exactly, although such changes as those I suggested, Thors arent that used vs protoss if at all, tanks some use them but I see MMM, so it would be ok for TvP. As for Zerg getting buffs, that would affect Terran seriously when nerfed, hope we don't have to switch races. Im not a race switcher, absolutely.

 

[kewlthis]

I shudder when I'm playing a favored terran player (I'm zerg).. But I can usually hold my own and win against most terrans. The real question here is are zerg balanced and the answer is no. We have very few effective unit choices, especially in the beginning.

I mean before tier 2 we have zerglings and roaches really. Don't get me started on all the things terrans can choose before tier 2. With terran you can almost always find a hard counter to any army composition, with zerg, not so much.

Although I do love those mutalisks :/

Agreed...Its hard to counter when its hard to scout and they have so many choises. Missile turrets/siege tanks/block pretty much kills my scouting. I wish there was a way to scout terran....

buff overlords/seers!!!

 

[tagg1080]

Make units move in an army - with distance between them

No.

This is a key part of the game.

Learn to micro.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

Let me clarify this first one is not my suggestion, but the OP's suggestion on TL. I agree with it because war3 had it and Im not sure SC1 also had it. Unlike war3 where it's a micro game mostly and where there is such option for ordering while walking anyway, in SC2 where it's mostly macro and huge armies, such thing is more than needed. On the other hand, you have a point, because when there's not much micro play.. how you will ambush an enemy with a Siege Tank making him lose lots is indeed part of the game, However, AOE can inflict on groupings too,

currently you can make 100 Marines looks like one if you click too much on them, then again you could make mass gargas in war3 look like one but it's just that SC2 has bigger armies and need little distance and not move like a meat ball

 

[mrzwach]

@kewl, ...what

if you can't scout with overseers/changelings, you are either doing something wrong or your opponent is playing so horribly (surrounding his base with a wall of missile turrets) that you should win anyways

 

[Zorga]

It can actually be effective surrounding your base with missile turrets in some games....

But your right, Zerg doesn't need better scouting...

 

[mrzwach]

Even so, you would have to have an OBSCENE number of missile turrets to prevent an overseer from dropping a changeling and getting away.

Also, someone suggested that Zerg could morph Overseers right away (without a lair), but they wouldn't have detection or changelings until you got a lair. This way, you could morph an overseer (since they have fast movespeed), allowing you to scout a Terran player earlier. I think this could help the situation a lot, and wouldn't be imba or anything.

 

[Dark Hunter1357]

TvZ: if the T has tors and siege tanks, what does the zerg do? If the tanks are positioned good or hight ground or choke, ultras will fail, if he has raven roach will fail, mass speedling might win, but is it cost effective on larvas side and mutas will fail from one or two tors. Terran can slowly advance with these siege tanks and still protect his base with a few tanks on hight ground and 2 tors.
TvZ 2: MMM can get killed by infestors.

 

[mrzwach]

Actually Mutas can kill thors (in small numbers) not too badly if properly micro'd. people just tend to right click the thors, causing your mutas to ball up and die.

 

[MGCǂSpectre]

HOLY TRINITY MAN!

...........[Thor] Kills Mutas ----->
........^.............^
......./.,..............\
...../....................\
.../........................\
[SCVs] Repair<-----[Medivacs] Heal/Load

 

[Zorga]

I fully agree with mrzwach, when the zerg players micro their mutas well they are actually good at killing thors. The Thors AOE is very small so its not to hard as a Zerg player to see to it that the Thor only hits 1 Muta at a time. I'm linking a guide that perfecly shows how you easily can micro much better with your mutas.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=145719

See? Not that hard at all, and the results are astonishing!

Here's the idea in action, by Psy. Great stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68H8FeZHkWg&feature=digest

Most of you have probably thought about this, but atleast I didn't comprehend how easily mutas can snipe Thor without taking to much casualties.

I actually played a Zerg player right now who used the technique, even though i went for early Thors he managed to snipe em all out and secure the game.

Mutas are fucking strong people, they force the terran player to spend valuable minerals on building tons of turret in his base, and they can easily harass expansions early.

So to all you Zerg players, try the tactic out. Perhaps it will help you alot!

 

[PurplePoot]

This has been around for a while and Thors still hard counter Mutalisks. They don't utterly annihilate Mutalisks, but they certainly hard counter them.

 

[Zorga]

Of course Thors counter Mutalisks! Thors do bonus versus light units, and Mutalisks are light units. But sometimes the zerg players loses far more mutas then he should due to bad microing against Thors, and that can lose him the match. I'm not saying you should mass Mutas if your opponent is pumping out a lot of Thors.. that certainly aint cost effective.

 

[Statharas]

I am a Zerg player and i voted No. I am in Platinum 1v1 and Gold 2v2 with mare. Trust me. Terrans are OP. If i play against a good player, no rush will work, on ANY map. My ZvZ and ZvP are better than ZvT, and i never could beat a pro player. I encountered 5 players from Diamond league, 2 of them being Terran, 1 Zerg and 2 Protoss. I could never beat the Terran. I could barely beat the Zerg and 1-1 Protoss. Terrans seriously need a nerf.