[Campaign] Rise of the Lich King Reanimated

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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

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Rise of the Lich King Reanimated
lichking title.jpg
Remember this oooold campaign from the dark ages of war3editor, Rise of the lich king ?
Well I decided to make a bit of necromancy on my ~15 years old work.

What is Rise of the lich king ?
(c'n'p from map description)
An alternate story following the Frozen throne campaign. WOW and the Rexxar story never happened and the Lich King is not content to just sit on his cold chair for years. Play as blood elves, nagas, humans and undead.
Click to expand...
The old campaign was 8 playable maps with different playstyles (micro, macro, holdout, a bit of stealth, side quests etc.) and different playable factions + 5 cutscene maps

What's new in this remake ?
  • actual english !
    Looking back at what I wrote makes me cringe but nowadays I'm pretty confident I'm as good as a native speaker at written english... spoken is another matter though
  • completely new ending that hopefully doesn't suck !
    I know the old ending was pretty lame... It seemed a good idea at the time I guess ^^
  • 2 completely new maps and all others greatly altered/expanded upon

  • a buttload of custom ressources (300+ imported files right now and more to come)
    mostly from this site + musics and a couple of sounds
  • at least one new player-controlled unit for each map + expanded naga tech-tree + new human and dwarven units + a few new spells
    details : 3 nagas, 4 bloodelves, 4 undeads, 4 dwarves, 6 humans
  • Maps with different tilsets : from the ice of Northrend to the jungles and city of Theramore, but also the ruins of Lordaeron, mountains of Khaz Modan and desert of Barrens
    some maps are partly reused when it makes sense, but with a VERY different context
  • a couple of boss battles
    with both normal hero abilities + scripted phases
  • new improved dialogues : more character focus, less exposition
    also a more consistant tone since I got rid of all cheesy/too cliche lines
  • greatly improved terraining/cutscenes
    my goal is to reach the level of Med. MapGuy (with less custom models)
  • way more polish overall
    The old campaign was my 2nd ever warcraft project after all...
  • Easter egg hunt
    1 on each playable map
Maps : 10 playable, 4 cutscenes

Difficulty : should be between Blizzard normal and hard overall

Patch version : made and tested with 1.27 , no idea how it should also work on later patches

Release :
The plan is to put here increasingly complete demo versions with all currently remade maps for testing until all new versions of the maps are done, starting with prologue + map1 in the coming days. Then prologue +map1 +map2 etc.


Screenshots

Video

Changelog

Credits

Known bugs/limitations


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Maporino 2022 showcase of the 2nd map by Jayborino :

[2021-12-18] 1st map release
[2022-01-18] 2nd map release
[2022-02-26] 3rd map release
[2022-03-31] 4th map release
[2022-04-12] 5th map release
[2022-04-22] 6th map release
[2022-05-13] 7th map release
[2022-05-29] 8th map release
[2022-06-09] 9th map release
[2022-06-21] 10th and last map release

First thanks to CosmicBard for the constructive criticism on the ongoing project.


-I made the cutscenes for 16/9 (I use the widescreen mode) so the framing may be wonky if you play in 4/3
-Reloading can change the custom music playlist (in sieges maps for example)
-some custom models lack buff attachements or have other small bugs
-in map3 the saving/loading/exiting can lag
-if you use the mana recharge ability with more than one Lightbringer, they all use it, like it worked in starcraft 1


June 21 2022
Last demo release : all maps except epilogue

June 26 2022
The final version has been released here
 

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edgymaster

edgymaster

edgymaster

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Hey bro, I'm very glad you are back! For me and many others your work was the first fan campaign and what a company it was! I'm afraid you set the bar a bit too high, because very few campaigns were able to make even the slightest impression after yours. At any rate, I really hope you will see this project through! Best wishes and luck!
 
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Resyak

Resyak

Resyak

Level 26
Joined
Dec 24, 2019
Messages
488
An interesting idea, taking up old projects to update them and make them current is always difficult, especially if you have a good memory of the original campaign at the time. But everything that surrounds the Lich King will always arouse great interest and I'm sure that after so long you'll achieve a very good result. Courage and good luck, I'll play the updated campaign when it is finished.

Regards.
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

Level 10
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
66
I've just played through these two missions a few days ago. And my first impression is that this campaign is going to be really good, and basically an upgrade over the original in every way you could think of. Seeing two extra levels after the Theramore defense mission also gives me a ton of hype, and makes me really curious about how you're looking to end the campaign, and the ideas you've had for those two maps.

The new units and the changed up tech trees are quite nice. The ranger upgrade is a great way to spice up an otherwise very boring unit, that new melee undead unit is something that the original race was really missing, and as a naga enthusiast, the work you've done with their tech tree makes me quite happy, especially the lil Tidal Guardian snake (the naga songstress master ability should probably cost a little more though, big master rank spells are usually quite costly)

The new models are quite neat. I especially liked the new Arthas, Sylvanas and Black Paladin models.

The little tips at the loading screens are genuinely great and helpful. The one from Chapter 1 made me look around with Reveal and with my phoenix like a madman, though I imagine that one was mostly for the extra goldmine. The one in Chapter 2 is just a simple warning to the player about flank attacks, which is definitely helpful to people that haven't played the original and don't know about them.

It's just awesome how you expanded upon the first map and fixed a lot of its problems, while still keeping everything that defined it (take notes, Reforged). And my goodness, was I relieved to see all that extra lumber! The goblin sidequest was a good addition that made it a lot less annoying to push into the undead base, as the hero number advantage can now make up for the lack of siege weaponry. The fact that the player can just type in something to have all the items pinged goes a bit against the spirit of the quest, but I couldn't find two of the items, so it was quite a blessing for me.

The changes on the second mission definitely caught me by surprise, but they were surprises that I actually kind of liked, as they made the level a lot less simple and straightforward, which I always like to see with micro missions. The Lich King section here is a lot better at delivering on the power fantasy of a raid boss, the base defense section is very on-theme with Sylvanas (don't forget that this lady has challenged 3 powerful dreadlords with a very tiny force and won, she only gives up at the last moment when there's literally nothing else she could possibly do), and the unit picking is a really great addition that more micro maps should try doing (especially being able to pick 2 obsidian statues was an absolute godsent).

The text speed is a lot more consistent, which I really appreciate. In the original, there were moments where it was quite hard to catch what the characters were saying, but that problem is basically gone now.

The story changes were quite interesting. The ending of chapter 2 definitely made me ask some questions which the original just simply did not (I really hope that the spell on Varimathras and Arthas' talk about Sylvanas will have a payoff later, it would feel pretty weird if it wouldn't). The relationship between Vashj and Kael didn't land that well for me, and there were definitely a few moments where I felt that they acted a little out of character. Though from what I've seen, these two are more like business partners that work together because they were both stuck in a rough situation and had a connection through their ancestors, rather than friends that stick together because they genuinely care for each other, and their relationship in this campaign works much better if you view them from that perspective.

One thing I'm curious about is how much focus the comedy is gonna be getting here compared to the original. The original definitely had a few moments of comedy, but they all came from small side characters, and not the important characters that the main canon Warcraft established as fully serious ones. This campaign is obviously not canon, so the creator can do whatever he wants, I just hope that we aren't going to fully shift into Joe's Quest (which actually kept everyone from the original cast as completely serious characters, except Garithos, but that's fine cus he is... well, Garithos) or The Adventures of Rowan the Wise. Something in between those and the original Warcraft 3/World of Warcraft could definitely work, though.

When it comes to problems, I've only really found two. One of them was the minimap on CH1, which had these weird extra extension line thingies to the left and right that made it a little annoying to look at. (Could be a version related issue, as it wasn't present on the screenshot. I was playing this on 1.30.4 btw).
WC3ScrnShot_021522_004219_01.png

And the other was that I found a few minor grammar mistakes, though the English was still better than in the original, so I ain't complaining.

Overall, I think this project is great so far, and I can't wait to see how the later missions are going to be (I don't mean that literally of course, I can wait for as long as it takes for all the maps to be finished in a good state, even if that would be multiple years). I'll make sure to try out the other maps too once they're finished as well.
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
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Messages
337
First thank you so much, you're a godsend with such detailed feedback. :thumbs_up:

CosmicBard said:
the naga songstress master ability should probably cost a little more though, big master rank spells are usually quite costly
Click to expand...
Good point, I usually don't think about the mana cost in terms of balance

CosmicBard said:
The fact that the player can just type in something to have all the items pinged goes a bit against the spirit of the quest, but I couldn't find two of the items, so it was quite a blessing for me.
Click to expand...
Yeah but I was afraid the items could be too hard to find/some people would find it annoying... maybe I'll just give a hint first if I change the map later - also why I hinted at stuff behind trees

CosmicBard said:
One of them was the minimap on CH1, which had these weird extra extension line thingies to the left and right that made it a little annoying to look at.
Click to expand...
I know but I didn't found a way to remove these non-blacked areas. I think it's because there is a zone the camera can't show (ending cutscene) and it makes the map format/minimap bug out :confused:2

About Vashj and comedy, it's not gonna be a funny campaign ala Joe's quest or Rowan, it's just that Vashj was a really boring character in TFT : just a henchwoman, 100% business.
She makes a joke because she is in a good mood, since she thinks Illidan won. She definitely won't become a comic relief character but hopefully she'll have a bit of personality. And the relationship with Kael has evolved since their "f*ck Garithos" alliance days in my mind (even if it wasn't shown in TFT).
My goal is to have, if not a character arc, at least character stuff for each major player = the heroes that have HD models

CosmicBard said:
I can wait for as long as it takes for all the maps to be finished in a good state, even if that would be multiple years). I'll make sure to try out the other maps too once they're finished as well.
Click to expand...
Hopefully not years :xxd:
I look forward to have your opinion on each map - map 3 will be released soonish I hope
 

Dori900I

Dori900I

Dori900I

Level 4
Joined
Feb 13, 2022
Messages
28
I hope you will add this model to your campaign as a unit for the Scourge.
The model was made by BossGengar.
And the last map was great.
 

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CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

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I'm absolutely expecting to see that model in the True Story of Arkain. I mean, there's an undead nexus for skeletons with the goal of purging all unholy flesh, and there's one for undead demons, which should most likely be created on the very next act.
It would be neat to see it in this campaign too, though. Especially because I don't imagine that the new Forsaken melee unit would also be with the Scourge (could be wrong here, just making assumptions).

Oh, and btw, I'll play and review the third chapter a bit later. I kinda wanna finish my Malfurion's Quest playthrough first, which might take a while. I just simply have this OCD where I want to finish a campaign first before moving to something else, which also helps me get comfortable with the difficulty/heroes/races/new mechanics/etc.
 

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
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Messages
337
@Dori900I : glad you liked the map ! That's a nice beefy skeleton model, I won't use it but you will see new skeletons models in the last map. And the Scourge will get a new spellcaster to replace banshees in the next map.

@CosmicBard : take your time, the dwarf map will probably take me a while. And that's not OCD, that's just a good way to avoid campaigns to blur together and get lost :gg:
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

Level 10
Joined
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Messages
66
So, I finally got around to playing the third mission, and oh goodness, did it catch me off guard. You've made it so much more unforgiving than the original, which I guess is fine, because that's what makes stealth fun. It also makes me appreciate the circle indicators even more, as the mission in its current iteration would be pretty unbearable without them. Anyhow, here are some of my thought regarding specific stuff:
  • The team names are in French (luckily, I understood to blood elven one thanks to this video, but it should still be fixed)
  • Now that the player is controlling the ship, it feels kind of pointless that the characters are accompanied by the naga. At first, I thought they were taken to defend the boat if it got attacked, but they did nothing when the hydra showed up. But I guess the snapdragon call ability is basically the player using the accompanying naga, but if that's the case, then the myrmidons should probably not be taken, as it doesn't make much sense that you can't call them (even though Ensnare would be pretty damn useful).
  • The fact that the detection ships can't attack makes the mission a lot more interesting. As you can now move freely while in their zone, but there's a risk to doing that, as a nearby battleship could easily blow you to pieces if you miscalculated things. So basically, you can be safe near either of the two ships, but when you're in the zone of both, then that's when you're screwed. It's pretty interesting, and good design.
  • The hydra puzzle is honestly a really good one, as I've never seen one like that in Warcraft 3 (I've seen ones where you need to push something, but I don't remember having to angle something that follows me, to make it break stuff), and it's a lot more than just simple trial and error, and there weren't any buttons, levers or runes. The only thing that I would change, is that I'd give the player a bit more space, as I ended up getting my boat stuck in my first few tries, and you need to pull the hydra dangerously close to get it to break a few specific rocks.
  • For some reason, I decided to try playing this on version 1.31, and I've got some extreme lags by the end of the hydra puzzle, so I've switched to an earlier one, and the lags were gone. Something that wasn't gone though, was the inability to save after it. The game just simply couldn't load saves that were taken after the puzzle (I've tried it on version 1.30 and 1.29, and they both had this issue).
  • Seeing the snapdragon calling ability made me quite happy, though, especially after I noticed that the detection ships have light armor, because it meant that I could easily take them out and make the rest of the map fairly easy.... I swear, this was like, the only time I forgot to read the quest and this happens :angry:. I checked back on the Log, and the "do not destroy any ships" part wasn't mentioned there, so that should probably be addressed (even though this was entirely on me xd)
  • One last nitpick that I have is about the camera. The player's view being so wide is important for the mission, yet if you accidentally zoom in, then to my knowledge, you have no commands to go back into the wide view. Maybe a command is mentioned in the first mission, but I don't exactly remember, so I'll mention this just in case.
  • I really liked some of the new visual things that were added in. The broken isles interface border thingy looks great, and I liked the new lighthouse model too (plus the new hero models are great, especially Sylvanas, but I mentioned that before).
  • The little conversation between Kael and Sylvanas was neat, and it kind of makes me think that one of them is gonna die at some point (just a gut feeling, it could be wrong). I'm guessing these kinds of conversations are going to be a frequent thing in this campaign, which is great, because most campaigns only do them in cinematics, and the in-game talk is reserved only for taunts, or things that help the player (like when Mal'ganis says "I live once more!" every time he resurrects in The Culling). I think it's a good idea to do some character development during moments when there isn't a lot of action, and it also makes the campaign more unique.

Overall, I think the map is absolutely an improvement over the original, and isn't just a forgettable filler chapter anymore. And other than a few quality of life improvements, I wouldn't really change anything about it.
Looking forward to seeing the Ironforge map! That one is definitely very iconic to the campaign, but is also extremely frustrating, so I'm really curious to see how you'll balance it out.
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
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Messages
337
First, thanks a bunch for the detailed feedback once again. :thumbs_up:

CosmicBard said:
  • Now that the player is controlling the ship, it feels kind of pointless that the characters are accompanied by the naga. At first, I thought they were taken to defend the boat if it got attacked, but they did nothing when the hydra showed up. But I guess the snapdragon call ability is basically the player using the accompanying naga, but if that's the case, then the myrmidons should probably not be taken, as it doesn't make much sense that you can't call them (even though Ensnare would be pretty damn useful).
Click to expand...
You mean in the intro cutscene ? if the naga units move in gameplay it means something has gone very very wrong in the triggers :vw_wtf:
CosmicBard said:
  • The fact that the detection ships can't attack makes the mission a lot more interesting. As you can now move freely while in their zone, but there's a risk to doing that, as a nearby battleship could easily blow you to pieces if you miscalculated things. So basically, you can be safe near either of the two ships, but when you're in the zone of both, then that's when you're screwed. It's pretty interesting, and good design.
Click to expand...
I was inspired by the starcraft 2 stealth missions. Were the 3 possible repairs useful/too much difficulty-wise ?

CosmicBard said:
  • The only thing that I would change, is that I'd give the player a bit more space, as I ended up getting my boat stuck in my first few tries, and you need to pull the hydra dangerously close to get it to break a few specific rocks.
Click to expand...
While testing it, I still died a lot despite obviously already knowing the trick, which means replaying wasn't boring. On the flip side it can get frustrating, that's why I gave the hint to quick-save. So maybe I'll rework it a bit but I'm not sure right now. Oh BTW are the hotkeys QWE working ? I have an AZERTY keyboard so I'm not sure.

CosmicBard said:
  • For some reason, I decided to try playing this on version 1.31, and I've got some extreme lags by the end of the hydra puzzle, so I've switched to an earlier one, and the lags were gone. Something that wasn't gone though, was the inability to save after it. The game just simply couldn't load saves that were taken after the puzzle (I've tried it on version 1.30 and 1.29, and they both had this issue).
Click to expand...
I'll have to test it, I don't think I tried saving AFTER the hydra. As for the lag, I didn't experience any but I had a strangely long wait after exiting the map (win & defeat). Did you get that too ?

CosmicBard said:
  • I checked back on the Log, and the "do not destroy any ships" part wasn't mentioned there, so that should probably be addressed (even though this was entirely on me xd)
Click to expand...
I usually let the player check out the quest log (to punish inattentive players muahahah:ogre_hurrhurr:) but maybe this time I should remind it since at first you just can't attack at all
CosmicBard said:
  • One last nitpick that I have is about the camera. The player's view being so wide is important for the mission, yet if you accidentally zoom in, then to my knowledge, you have no commands to go back into the wide view.
Click to expand...
I thought about it but went "why would the player zoom in anyway ?" , guess I should give the option

CosmicBard said:
I think it's a good idea to do some character development during moments when there isn't a lot of action, and it also makes the campaign more unique.
Click to expand...
That's the plan for all maps but of course depending on what the players do the dialogs can happen during a battle... :grin:
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

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66
You mean in the intro cutscene ? if the naga units move in gameplay it means something has gone very very wrong in the triggers :vw_wtf:
Click to expand...
Yeah, I was talking about the cutscenes (I imagine that they aren't present during the gameplay because they're swimming way underwater). I just thought that the characters took them for potential protection, but they just stayed underwater when the hydra showed up, and even after that, you can't call the myrmidons to help, so it made no sense that they even came along with them. It was just a minor insignificant nitpick, nothing more.


Were the 3 possible repairs useful/too much difficulty-wise ?
Click to expand...
Wait, there were repairs? Were those available at the blood elf base or were they happening automatically at different points on the map? I kind of completed it without taking any damage on the boat up until the tower quest, when those siege weapons started firing at me.


Oh BTW are the hotkeys QWE working ? I have an AZERTY keyboard so I'm not sure.
Click to expand...
Yup, they're all working perfectly. Though I forgot to mention it, but the Submerge ability of the snapdragons still has "U" as its hotkey rather than "Q" or "W". I'm not sure if that was intentional, but I didn't expect it at first.

I had a strangely long wait after exiting the map (win & defeat). Did you get that too ?
Click to expand...
Yeah, that happened with me too. If I was looking to exit the mission, then I either had to wait for the screen to go white so that the little "Close the program or Wait for the program to respond" thing pops up, or I just had to resort to Alt+F4. I'm not exactly sure what's causing this, though I definitely suspected that something fishy is going to happen when I noticed the 74 MB size on just 3 playable maps (of course, big size doesn't guarantee that things will be slow or broken, it just makes it a lot more likely).
EDIT: I've just managed to exit the level on version 1.29 by using the "Quit Mission" button, and it worked properly, without any lags or white screens. I guess it might bug out after the hydra section is triggered?


I usually let the player check out the quest log (to punish inattentive players muahahah:ogre_hurrhurr:) but maybe this time I should remind it since at first you just can't attack at all
Click to expand...
I think I actually read the bottom text on the quest, but didn't really look at the top part, because I'm just used to it being immediately displayed on the Log. It's a bad habit that was bound to get me punished eventually, though I definitely agree that a reminder would be nice.


I thought about it but went "why would the player zoom in anyway ?" , guess I should give the option
Click to expand...
It's muscle memory, for when I want to see things up close, or when the camera feels wrong (or for screenshots, I guess). It only happened like, twice here, but there's no way I'm the only one who sometimes zooms without thinking.


Oh, and there's a funny thing I forgot to share. Snapdragons sometimes just sit there when they die. Like some kind of statues that pop up from underwater. It's weird.

WC3ScrnShot_031922_011045_02.png
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
337
1/ the myrmidons are just for consistency, they were the ones who brought sylvanas at the start

2/ there are lumber items near sunken ships, I thought any player would be curious - but they're not directly in the main path so you can miss them, maybe you didn't see them at all

3/ I changed the hotkeys only for the ship since I never use them myself in RTS, but here they're useful/necessary for the stealth and the hydra

4/ I suspect it's because I had to have some triggers run every 0.01 seconds, I don't see any other way but it must leak even after they're inactivated

for the animation, I made them play the stand animation when they're invoked precisely so they don't look like frozen statues, but they should have normal animation as soon as they do something (attack, move etc.) :eekani:
 

Lordliw

Lordliw

Lordliw

Level 4
Joined
Apr 14, 2021
Messages
56
Hey Armelior. Great to see you back with this new project, however, I have one small request to ask of you. Do you still keep Clotaire's Lich King model that you used in the old Rise of the Lich King campaign? I've been trying to get it for the last weeks or so. If you have it, I would appreciate it a lot if you could share it. Thanks in advance.
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

Level 10
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
66
So, I've just played through the fourth mission. At the start, I was kind of nervous, since I remembered that the level was extremely annoying in its original iteration (though I guess that's partially why it was so iconic), but I was pleasantly surprised for sure. You did a lot with this missions, so I have quite a few thoughts to share as well:

  • A bunch of names and descriptions are French again. The team names are actually fine this time, but the Gryphon Aviary has a French name, and the adept and expert spells of the eredar have French descriptions. There are a few more examples as well, but these 2 stuck with me the most.
  • The skeletal eredar is a fun addition. They're not so OP that you can just spam them to destroy everything, but they're good enough so that buying a few is quite beneficial. Having the tentacle summoning as an adept spell is weird, and it felt much more like an initiate spell. Though the naga songstress' Healing Spray felt out of place as an initiate spell too, so I guess I'll be expecting little mixups like that (and I don't really mind it tbh, as you don't need to have the same design principles as Blizzard y know). I do love the little rhyme that the name has btw.
  • The map was made a lot smaller, which I really appreciate. The original was filled with huge chunks of unused space and weird out of place creep camps, and cutting those out is a great improvement for the map.
  • Though this also came with the crown on the hill being removed. I was honestly expecting that to stay (there were still lots of areas where you could have put it), but I guess it was removed cus it might be a little too strong for this early in the campaign.
  • Thank you for giving the orcs their own tiny path towards the enemy base! Originally, their path crossed with the one that the player had to take to reach the way gate, which was just the worst. Glad to see that gone.
  • Soooo we have a Scepter of Mastery and a new custom race as the enemy... I think we all know what that means. Yup, I made a dwarven base. And I've also found the following bugs: The dwarven footman is unable to get Defend. The ranged dwarven units don't benefit from the ranged damage upgrade. The dwarven runepriest is unable to get to master rank. This is not a bug, but that big tank dwarf with the aura just doesn't feel like a 5 supply units to me (Endurance Aura is nice and all, but the guy is squishier than an abomination, so at least 100 more health would be good). The siege engine can just randomly disappear from the workshop command card forever. Mortar teams are unable to get Flare. Again, this is not a bug, but the turret of the engineers just feels completely worthless, as it basically dies in 2 hits, and has less DPS than Disease Cloud, considering armor (I guess it is weak to balance out the insane range, DPS and the Repair ability of the engineer, but I think a power shift would be fine).
  • That other deactivated way gate is a lil weird. I guess the player could use the stone to activate that one instead, but the only advantage I see from that is the ability to destroy the main base without having to deal with the other one first.
  • The new Ironforge section is much more interesting than the original, and I'm glad to see the unit selection thingy being reused like that. Obviously went hard on the sustain with the double obsidian statue setup again (plus necro wagon to give Kel mana, and an abom to soak damage, only to heal it back non stop).
  • The rune trap mechanic is a really neat idea, but I'd increase their effects by 50% at least, since they felt kind of unimpactful in the grand scheme of things (you could also make them aoe, but then the green and blue ones would just be normal runes, and not rune traps).
  • The boss fight was a bit fast, though the difficulty and the speed most certainly varies based on the unit setup that the player took. I actually hit a lever at the start, which made it a bit messy (I'm just used to boss fights requiring me to hit levers, not avoid them).
  • Varimathras' little mysterious passive effect doesn't actually do anything, right? I guess it'll become relevant later. As for the rest of his kit, I see that you're trying to make him focus around being an aoe guy now (rather than the old jack of all trades - master at none version), which I can certainly get behind.
  • Kel'Thuzad is small, and is missing the hero glow, which makes it very tough to see and select him without using hotkeys. At the first few moments of the intro cinematic, I actually thought that the skeletal eredar was Kel'thuzad.
  • Seeing the explanation for Kel'Thuzad's betrayal is quite interesting, and I'm wondering if his answer here actually matches with the thing that canon Kel'Thuzad would say. His talk about death also kind of brought back some Arcane memories, and I'm now convinced that Singed and Kel'Thuzad would be great pals, so I thank you for that idea.
  • You... actually just used a modified version of the Inferno town theme from Heroes of Might and Magic 3, didn't you? This is the first time I've actually heard the music of that game being used outside of the game itself, and it made me quite happy and nostalgic (even if Inferno wasn't exactly among my favorite towns, cus they just had so little going for them).

Overall, I think this mission was really fun, and had a pretty ok balancing. The source material was decent too, but the new additions definitely helped a lot. Plus the new models.
Looking forward to seeing the harbor defense mission, which was actually one of my favorites way back in the day. I always like seeing unique types of defense missions after all.
 

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
337
1/ you say the tentacle spell is in french ? I didn't change the description so it should be in the player's language (it's from the boss in the TFT arthas campaign BTW)

2/ I keep the vanilla spells as they were when possible : curse is initiate, lightning shield is adept so the new spells get the other slot
What rhyme are you talking about ?

4/ yes the crown is too powerful to be kept through the campaign, but it's not gone : magni wears it now :smile:

5/ yeah now the orcs can still get in the way a bit if you attack by the south, but there are other paths

6/ the dwarves can be played, but I didn't intend it to be the "normal" way so they're not fleshed out for that (icons, descriptions etc) but in retrospect I should have tested the dwarves myself because some of the stuff you found won't work for the AI either:hohum:
About the siege engine, what do you mean "randomly disapear from the command card"? you can't train them after a time ?
About the turrets they're supposed to be a distraction the engineer can spam. They would be really irritating if they were a real threat I think, but maybe I should make them targeted more by the AI to better play their support role, what do you think ?

7/what's weird with the 2nd portal ? one is for the allies base, the other is for the main base (but you can be flanked if the ally AI decides to attack you) - killing the allied base is optional

8/the rune traps I wanted to be more annoying than dangerous because I want the player to feel like varimathras :grin: and I know the pathfinding of warcraft 3 can be very frustrating and don't want to punish the player because of it

9/so the boss fight should hit less hard but have more HP maybe ? It's hard for me to judge because I'm a very casual player nowadays (meaning slow - I tested it in slow speed half the time) and the amount/type of units the player has can vary
as for the lever i thought about making it invincible until magni uses it, but I thought if the player wanted to test it and immediately regret it, why not ? that's why magni comes to you if you do that instead of waiting - no killing the adds beforehand for you ! :grin:

Varimathras' little mysterious passive effect doesn't actually do anything, right?
Click to expand...
Well, are you the Lich King ? I'm not so I don't know ^^

10/I don't remember why I changed his abilities (except for the ultimate this one I know) but I don't like the sleep spell much

11/I never thought about the hero glow... maybe It's easy to add, I know nothing about modelling

12/I remember reading Kel'Thuzad being a Kirin Tor mage expelled because he dabbled in necromancy, so I thought this motivation was better than "I like skeletons" - Arcane is the animated series about LoL right ?

13/the music is actually from Homm6 (which I really liked even if it's pretty different from the others) which has a "best of" of the series themes in new versions as a soundtrack ;
the varimathras theme is indeed the inferno form homm3 - the kael theme is from heroes2, the sylvanas theme comes I think from Messiah which I never played

Funny, you said in your review on the old version that the naval holdout was too easy/boring but now it was your favorite ?

A great many thanks for you in-depth feedback once again, you will be credited when I finish this thing. :infl_thumbs_up:
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

Level 10
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
66
1 - Huh, that's interesting. Well, I'm pretty sure my Warcraft 3 isn't French, since literally everything else is in English (just went to double check in a melee map, and yup, everything was normal). I guess the language doesn't update when you save descriptions, or a bug might have happened that prevented it.

2 - Yeah, it makes sense to keep the original spells on their normal slots. I generally think of initiate spells as low impact spammable spells, or weak, but long duration buffs and debuffs. While adept spells are very situational, but could be game changing in the right scenario. And master spells are the big ones that are always very useful, but gated by high manacosts and/or cooldowns. But I can recall many examples of these descriptions not being accurately followed, so it's completely fine if you want a new spammable low impact custom spell on the adept slot.
By the rhyme, I just meant the name of the unit, which makes it a lil funny to say (cus the words "skeletal" and "eredar" both have E-E-A as their vowels, and they're pronounced in the same way too).

6 - I assumed that a lot of the things that don't work (like the master rank runepriest and the Defend on the footman) are like that due to balance reasons, though I definitely found it a little strange since the player has everything unlocked.
By disappearing, I indeed meant that they aren't trainable anymore. If I remember correctly, they were available at first, but then I looked again a bit later, and they were gone (it definitely surprised me, since I've never seen a bug like that before). I don't know what caused that, though.
I guess that makes sense for the turrets, and they would basically count as lower damage serpent wards. I don't exactly remember how much the enemy units and towers were targeting them, but I think it would be fair to make their target priority match the one of a serpent ward (I don't really know how that works from the map editing perspective, I'm just spitballing here).
Oh, and something I forgot to say is that the engineers can actually help speed up the building process like normal human/elf/dwarf workers can (most likely due to them having the Repair ability). I don't know if that was intentional, but I'll mention it anyway.

7 - The thing that I mostly found weird is how it doesn't actually do almost anything, unless the player has knowledge of the map (so that he won't just immediately use up the stone on the first gate, since most players will find the stone before seeing the second gate) and is specifically trying to speedrun. I was kind of expecting a second stone to drop down somewhere, so I could have an easier time sending reinforcements. But I guess that would remove the whole choice aspect of the thing, where you either get a shortcut right to the main base, or you get a good position to explore the map from.

8 - Yeah, I think that's reasonable. Though I immediately figured out that they're one time, so I just sent skeletons to disarm them. But if the player didn't pick at least 1 necromancer, then I can easily see how a 300 damage red rune might be terribly unfun.

9 - I'd definitely be ok with the bossfight being a little more slow paced, though I don't think the change needs to be that huge, as it's not like he can 100-0 your heroes in less than 4 seconds or anything. Maybe give the hero about 300 more health, and reduce the damage of those golems by a tiny bit (to make up for the fact that they can't be affected by debuffs). But it's also possible that it's perfect as it is, and it only became fast due to me using necro wagon.
I can see what you were going for with the levers, and the idea of making Magni run at you was smart, though I feel like an automatic trigger for the reinforcements would have been relatively the same. I guess the idea was that you should try and damage Magni as much as you can before he reaches the levers? But if that's the case, then I'd probably put the levers a bit farther from him, while giving him more survivability, to make it a much more relevant part of the fight.

10 - Fun fact: I actually thought that it might be some kind of passive that does something when Varmiathras died, since it was put on by the literal king of the undead after all. But I guess it'll remain a mystery for now. I'm not a huge fan of Sleep either, even if it technically has moments where it's good (it's just not that satisfying to use).

12 - Yup, Arcane is indeed a series on Netflix about League. It handles a lot of interesting topics, with death being one of them. And Singed is this old mad scientist guy that is trying everything to avoid death, and his personality is definitely a little similar to Kel'Thuzad's ("Love and legacy are the sacrifices we make for progress. It's why I parted ways with Heimerdinger Antonidas." and "Nature has made us intolerant to change, but fortunately, we have the capacity to change our nature." are lines I could easily imagine Kel saying). Though religion wasn't mentioned there, as the region that the show was focusing around is kind of devoid of it.


Ok, I'm gonna have to clarify something with the fifth mission. When I said "way back in the day", I meant like, seven years ago. Opinions can change over time, and seven years is certainly enough time for me to change my mind, especially since custom campaigns are getting better and better, which means that the mistakes/flaws of older and less updated campaigns will eventually stick out like a sore thumb.

Thanks, but I'm gonna mention that I'm mostly just doing this for fun (and because these maps are honestly pretty darn good), so don't feel forced to provide credit. But I most certainly won't say no :smile:
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
337
1/ yeah I'm sure I didn't change even a coma in the description since it's still white (it turns into another color when you change it in the editor) so it should display the version in the mpq still :vw_wtf:


6/ the availability of a unit changing when I didn't make any trigger about it is definitely strange
  • for the turrets I will up their priority to become a target
  • for the engineers being able to speed up the building construction it comes from the human repair ability - good to know I guess :smile:

7/I shouldn't have presumed again... you're supposed to approach the portal with kel'tuzad like the 1st one so he tells you how to activate the 2nd portal, it's not with a stone : you can activate both portals, it's even needed to complete the side quest

8/when I tested I often just walked an abo or varimathras on them, because I like patience when moving units and my necros get totally sniped by the mortars in the ironforge area :angry:

9/the idea with the lever is that you don't have only magni to deal with but it's better if the fight has different "phases" instead of having the adds already at the start - it's mechanically the same as an automated trigger yes, but I thought it would be more interesting visually/story-wise

10/having the Lich King do something positive when the heroes die could be interesting, but it would probably push the player to suicide them :gg: - BTW do you think the dead units raising as scourge units in the 2nd map a good enough indication of his powers ?

12/I have always thought of kel'tuzad as scientific-minded, despite him being a literal cult leader :grin: I think because of the voice acting (french version)

about the 5th map, now I get it : I have little patience for war3 pathfinding and campaigns with choke-points make me scream at the screen, because I played starcraft 2 campaigns a bunch

about the credits :
-I do it for fun too, and mostly for me but feedback means I can make the maps fun for some who play very differently than me
-you'll see I take credits seriously if you look at the 1st post
-you're a rare breed, not many people give such detailed and relevant criticism
-each of your post help my motivation for the testing phase, which I find not that fun nowadays

... onwards to testing the 5th map !
 

edgymaster

edgymaster

edgymaster

Level 2
Joined
May 7, 2019
Messages
7
Greetings. Played the forth map on 1.31.1, the bugs are:

1. If you first complete the quest to provoke orcs, the second teleport cannot be recharged no matter how much mana you give it.
2. Destroying the main base does nothing: the quest does not get finished and you cannot proceed further (may be linked to the bug 1).
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
337

@edgymaster :​

1/did you try twice : before/after orc quest ? there shouldn't be any link between the 2 quests :eekani:
did the mana drain work ? the counter updates after each drain is finished, and at 2500 you should complete the quest

2/did you destroy all blue buildings ? I've never seen the AI rebuild far from the old position, but you never know - if you did, it means the condition in the trigger bugged and I'll have to change back again :sad:
 

edgymaster

edgymaster

edgymaster

Level 2
Joined
May 7, 2019
Messages
7
I replayed the map and if you complete the quest with the portals first and go for the orcs afterwards, destroying the main base allows you to go further! Cheers!
 

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

CosmicBard

Level 10
Joined
Dec 1, 2021
Messages
66
So, I've just finished playing through missions 5 and 6. These two missions haven't received as many changes as the previous 4 maps, which I assume is the reason why they didn't take a too much time to be finished (at least compared to some other maps). Anyhow, here are my thoughts:


  • Before I go into anything else, I have to mention the new joke bits. I think they were added after the release of the sixth map, and I love em! It's mostly just humor based on weird references, but there's a lot of creative and clever ideas there for sure. It's also nice that they don't have any effects on the gameplay, they're just simply fun easter eggs that were placed to the delight of people who explore.
  • So to recap, we have a reference to Joe's Quest (I'd be interested to see how they ended up in Northrend btw), the youtuber Jayborino (I now understand why CH2 was sent to Maporino...), loot boxes and microtransactions (Btw, was the box intended to be a structure owned by the player team? That kind of makes it easy to find), Dwarf Campaign (with an additional reference to the name of its first chapter), the Witcher (which I don't really know much about, but the hero's title seemed like an obvious indication), and Lord of the Rings (I'm curious if there's an actual blue wizard there. I'm not that knowledgeable about the Tolkien stuff). I'm just kind of hoping there's gonna be at least one Star Wars Prequel meme in the future. (I mean come on, you can't just not include a prequel meme after the LotR one)
  • I'm really thankful that my items were saved, even despite me constantly switching the files that I play the campaign from. It gives me more of a realistic view of how the map would play out in the finished version, so that is nice.


  • I don't really have much to say about the fifth chapter to be honest. The story is basically the same, and the gameplay is just a straight up upgrade over the original. The problem with the original map is that there simply wasn't a lot that the player could do, but now we have a lot more units, a lot more spells for both us and the opponent, and we can actually train workers now, which can build and repair. So not only do you have more tools, but you also have more ways to utilize them, since the enemy ships are no longer immune to so many spells, and you also get ground units attacking your base. Plus the ally AI felt a bit smarter (though maybe it was completely unchanged, I can't know for sure).
  • The only things I'd really change about chapter 5, is that I would probably increase the cost on the basilisk armor reduction upgrade, since 50 gold + 50 lumber is something you would give to weak upgrades like Ensnare, Magic Sentry or Abolish Magic, and a passive 5 armor reduction on auto attacks simply feels like a higher tier upgrade to me (the number should probably be specified in the description btw, I only know it cus I clicked on a debuffed enemy). Aaaand there's that rune that is impossible to access, even though it looks like it should be reachable.
    Screenshot (869).png
  • One funny thing that I noticed, is that if you use Parasite on a battleship, then it's death will spawn both the ghost and the murloc, which I thought is quite amusing.
  • Oh, and the map description mentions that "you can build towers (cheaper and more quickly) on shallows" which made me think that the towers cost less and are built faster if you build them on shallow water, but they cost the normal amount and have the normal building speed if you build them on ground. That was just a misunderstanding, and the towers don't actually work like that, right?


  • The sixth chapter mostly just went through visual changes. And I think that's fine, as the map was already fine as it was. It was a short one with some interesting idea that made it quite fun, and that's exactly how it is in the new iteration too.
  • I think the new Kel'thuzad model is much better than the previous one that was used here. I think they both look good, but the new one is better in terms of visual clarity, plus those creepy red eyes are neat (even if blue would fit better, but that's just a nitpick).
  • I think it was a good idea to replace the spirit legionnaires with the undead demons. They're basically the same units, except that they have Curse swapped to Sleep (which is a choice I 100% agree with), and they're just more interesting and cool, thematically speaking.
  • The scream on the first village was an absolute jumpscare though. Yeah, it makes sense, and it fits into the situation really well, but good lord, was it still very unsettling (I suppose that was the idea, since the player is showing up randomly, and completely out of nowhere to murder civilians, and if this scenario was to happen in real life, then it would indeed make a really loud noise as hundreds are screaming out in terror).
  • The Kel'thuzad section unfortunately had a few bugs and inconsistencies. For one, if you happened to kill a villager right as he's about to enter a house and get replaced with two footmen, then the footmen will simply never come out and everything on the map just stays permanently frozen. Also, you never actually get notified of the cemetery sidequest (it just stays undiscovered no matter what, though it is still completable), so you need to have prior knowledge of the map to be aware about it. And lastly, if you posses a kill that guy (just... please rename that unit into runner or something), and then send him to the horn, then you still loose the mission, even though he is technically your unit (I know nobody will ever do that, but I just had to try it :grin:)
  • The gryphons getting replaced with pegasi makes a lot of sense, since there shouldn't be a lot of dwarves here. I also noticed that the Paladin no longer has "the Orcslayer" in his name, which is a nice touch. Though one thing that confused me were the female high elf villagers, as I don't recall Theramore having any elves (though maybe they do and I'm just wrong, I don't know much about that place after all).
  • I really like the new Danzil. He's such a nice and lovely character, which makes me very sad for what's about to happen to him in the next mission. :cry:
  • And lastly, I'm pretty annoyed at the quest log teasing me like this. "Destroy the buildings on the other side of the bridge and kill the"...the what, quest log? The what? :ogre_frown:
    Screenshot (878).png
 
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Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Armelior_is_back

Level 21
Joined
Dec 15, 2021
Messages
337
First thanks for the feedback as usual :thumbs_up:

I didn't think you would replay all the maps so soon just for the secrets ! (BTW please but the details in spoilers even if there aren't many people reading this thread)

-The lootbox should be neutral so I goofed up
-there is in fact a blue wizard - or 3 - but their existence is literally the only thing Tolkien wrote
-no star wars since I prefer to not have to import a model just for the easter egg, the reaver is an exception since if you know jayborino you know I HAD to put it :xxd:
-did the number of secret found increase after each map ? I didn't test that yet

You summed up the intent for the 5th map well.

-The AI is almost unchanged except it produces a few more units and should now rebuild buildings except towers just in case (even though I've never seen the enemy destroy one)
-yeah the upgrade is really cheap cause I want the player to use the new unit+upgrade since the enemy ships have high armor
-the runes are randomly spawned when a scourge ship dies, warcraft teleports them on walkable terrain if it's in the water so it's his fault you got trolled :wink:
-the towers are cheaper/faster built on this particular map compared to the 1st (and other races) again to encourage the player BTW did you try to build in the harbor ?

The 6th map :

-I wasn't too sure about the panicked crowd when the sound brutally stops, but it looks that the start is the problem :gg: I didn't think it would be unsettling, just more immersive

-how did you kill the villager when your units have stopped ? damage over time maybe ? I will have to add a dispel and a "unit alive" condition

-the cemetary quest is now discovered when your shade finds it, since it makes more sense that way. If it didn't appear after the shade enters the cemetary and tlaks about it then it's a bug

-he's not named "possess that guy" ! if you really want to fail the mission, why should I stop you ? :xxd: and the name is a joke for the players who will select him since I don't think many will

-the female villager is obviously a human because blizzard didn't bother to give them long ears, but I forgot to change their name:hohum:

-Danzil : I wanted to make him a good contrast to the canon characters that are all very serious - and I like him too
without spoiling too much the next map will be pretty different gameplay-wise including the ending

-I just checked in the trigger it ends as "kill the paladin" I'll have to check if I have to put the word on a new line because worldedit is a dummy sometimes

your reply + maporino showcase : today is great !:thumbs_up:
 
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