Max attack speed, myth or?

[markone]

Hey guys, i have a question here,
i dont see anything what can define hero's maximum attack speed. but fact is that heroes (melee ones, and in any map) with same agi can have different attack speed.

i know that there is attack cooldown, but its base, starting value, i know that it does decrease with agi increase, but i dont see anything abt max attack speed.

is it myth? max attack speed doesnt exist?

 

[SkriK]

Set cooldown to 0
set backswing points to 0
and see what happens.

 

[GhostWolf]

Hey guys, i have a question here,
i dont see anything what can define hero's maximum attack speed. but fact is that heroes (melee ones, and in any map) with same agi can have different attack speed.

i know that there is attack cooldown, but its base, starting value, i know that it does decrease with agi increase, but i dont see anything abt max attack speed.

is it myth? max attack speed doesnt exist?

Agility increases the attack speed by percents (%), not by values. The starting value is set in the object editor.

And if you put it to 0 it will probably crash, no ?

 

[Bobo_The_Kodo]

No, it will not crash.

But all units cannot faster than a certain ridiculously fast amount, something like 100x per second.

 

[Dagguh]

There also is a cap of 400% increased attack speed.​

 

[Rui]

It will not crash. I have tried with a hero who had 99999 agility, he just attacks too fast. I think the limit is 1 attack every 0.2 seconds.

 

[emperor_d3st]

I don't think so, but you might be right. I think the increased attack speed has a limit, the attack cooldown does not, but I'm too lazy to try.

 

[markone]

what is defined by "backswing points"

 

[Bobo_The_Kodo]

I'm sure i've seen a unit attacking more than once every .2 seconds in one of those random TDs on Bnet. Maybe around 10x or 20x that much is the max?

 

[Squiggy]

As far as i know, 100/second is the limit, because wc3 can't work with 0.00 (cooldown) and so it's the next higher value which is 0.01 ^^
Backswingpoints are (dunno how to describe it) the points where the attack does damage/the animation is resetted. So when you set the damagepoint to zero, the attack will do damage exactly when the attack fires..

 

[markone]

so how backswing change max attack speed?

btw. i didnt asked how much is it, i asked what does limit max attack speed? why happens that 2 heroes with same agi and same base cooldown do not attack with same speed?

 

[emperor_d3st]

I don't know what animation backswing point is, but animation damage point should be lower than the attack cooldown, or else the animation damage point becomes the attack cooldown, kinda. Try to experiment with the animation damage point and you'll see.

 

[markone]

so attack cooldown cannot go under animation damage point?

 

[Captain Griffen]

so attack cooldown cannot go under animation damage point?

I believe so, never actually checked it.

 

[emperor_d3st]

Yea, that's correct, it can never go under that. Check it and you'll see why not.

 

[En_Fuego]

In theory, attack animation is limitless as well as from a logical stand-point. But Warcraft III's engine probably contains attack speed as to where if you exceed a value it would crash the game.

The reason I see it as limitless is because if you have a hero with 99999999999999 agility, depending on what your conversion factor from agility points to attack speed in your map is (in this case we'll say 1 agi = 0.2 attack speed) can change the outcome. Now, if we are using 1 to 0.2, lets say you buy Gloves of Haste and get 15% more attack speed. 15% attack speed is calculated as 15% of you agility's attack speed. So it's (99999999999999 x 0.2).15.

Now that you have the formula for the attack speed increase, you also have to take in consideration animation like previous posters said. Animations have a limit to how fast you can attack. However, lets say you pick a model like...Village Female. She has no attack animation and attacks instantly. If you can continuously get faster with her, then yes it works.

So...I guess that in theoretical probability attack speed has no max, but when it comes to the Warcraft III Engine, it probably has a limit to how much data it can hold.

 

[Dagguh]

Alright, the amount of bullshit said in this thread is obnoxious.

First of all agility can only give Increased Attack Speed (IAS), which is a precen value. You can have a maximum of 400% IAS.

Now how does an attack work...

AC - Attack Cooldown - the minimum time between two aattacks
DP - Damage Point - the duration of attack animation played before an attack - can be cancelled, but the attack also will not land
BP - Backswing Point - the duration of attack backswing animation played after an attack - can be cancelled to start new DP quicker

Attack is landed (or missile is launched) after DP ends.
New DP can only start if both BP and AC are finished.
In triggers event "Is attacked" is fired at the beginning of DP.

Imagine this is a timeline:
Auto-attack:
AC > BP

[=   DP   =][=  BP  =]        [=   DP   =][=  BP  =]
[=      AC      =]            [=      AC      =]
--------------------------------------------------------------->
                                                             t

AC < BP

[=   DP   =][=      BP      =][=   DP   =][=      BP      =]
[=  AC  =]                    [=  AC  =]
--------------------------------------------------------------->
                                                             t

If you have 40% IAS then AC and DP will last 1/(1+0.4) their normal duraion. I am not sure about BP though.

Theoretically, if you would set DP, AC and BP to 0.000 it should instantly deal infinite damage without any aniamtion being played at all, but first of all, there are no clocks with infinite frequency AND there certainly is some engine limitation (probably the frequency of the main loop).

EDIT: @Poster above me: What a bunch of bullshit. Models don't carry any inforamtion about any combat qualities.
And what data is to be held? What the hell, man...​

 

[En_Fuego]

If a models back-swing has a longer duration (Warden v. Paladin) then yes, animation does come into play.

As for data, the WC3 Engine can't hold infinite ammounts of data. Once the value goes over a certain point it will crash the game.

 

[Dagguh]

If a models back-swing has a longer duration (Warden v. Paladin) then yes, animation does come into play.

As for data, the WC3 Engine can't hold infinite ammounts of data. Once the value goes over a certain point it will crash the game.

No it doesn't. model doesn't even have its backswing animation. It has only attacfk animation and where is swing and where is backswing is all up to editor. Please do not post if you dont have a blind idea of what you are talking about.

Again, what data, what were you smoking, dude?

For those guys who are excited about uber attack speeds I tested it out. If you have 0% IAS, the maximum is 10 attacks per second. With 100/200/300 % IAS it works along with the theory, namely it is 20/30/40 attacks per second. However, on 400% it was 45-46 attacks per second instead of 50. I can also confirm that 400% is the max IAS.

So to sum up, there is a maximum of:

• 45-46 attacks per second with IAS (buffs, items, agility, etc).
• 10 attack per second without any IAS.
• 400% IAS.

​

 

[markone]

@Dagguh Thanks, +rep for explanation

are u sure about this?

If you have 40% IAS then AC and DP will last 1/(1+0.4) their normal duraion.

How did u found that?

Im still confused about one thing. When i pick AC DP BP to some value (finite value, example AC = 2 DP = 1 BP = 1), how can i calcualate maximum attack speed for that unit? if 400% is max then ac and dp minimum are (AC+DP)/(1+4) = 20%*(AC+DP)
So for finite value maximum attack speed is 20% (or 1/5) of starting values

once again i do not talk abt situations where you have 10^9 agility or similar...

 

[Dagguh]

@Dagguh Thanks, +rep for explanation

are u sure about this?

How did u found that?

Im still confused about one thing. When i pick AC DP BP to some value (finite value, example AC = 2 DP = 1 BP = 1), how can i calcualate maximum attack speed for that unit? if 400% is max then ac and dp minimum are (AC+DP)/(1+4) = 20%*(AC+DP)
So for finite value maximum attack speed is 20% (or 1/5) of starting values

once again i do not talk abt situations where you have 10^9 agility or similar...

A hero with 10^9 would still have the max of 400% IAS. Once again: agility = n * IAS. (In DotA n=1).

And this 20%(AC+DP) is the minimum time between attacks, which is 5 times faster than 100%(AC+DP).

How idd I find it out? It's totally logical and I can confrim all of it in a test-map.​

 

[KingBob]

To add to that, BP does absolutely nothing to effect attack speed, set it to 10 and you can still have a 1 second attack speed. I think its only used for animation speed-altering, or something like that.

In my test I got 53/54 as the max attacks per second with + 1.0^9 attack speed
10 - 11 with 0 AC, 0 DP and 0 agi

The reason you can't have more then 50-ish is because the main game loop goes off about 50-60 times every second.

Also, the formula for attack cooldown is:
Cooldown = (Base Cooldown) / (1 + (0.02 * AGI) + (Item Bonuses) + (Ability Bonuses))
This from battle.net:
http://www.battle.net/war3/basics/heroes.shtml

 

[Dagguh]

The agility thing is not always 0.02... It's a variable.
and please send me test map, where you got more than 46 attacks per second.​

 

[cacbo]

im little confused here :S

In dota heros who have BP/DP 0.5/1 can have attack cooldown 0.34. Why is that?? I tested it and it's obious that they attack faster then BP value. Also i checked this DotA Allstars Ranking - DotA Rank

 

[Name_n]

what is defined by "backswing points"

Think of it this way, it's how long a model's attack animation takes for it to release the projectile or just cause instant damage (melee, or in some cases, ranged)

Let's use the Human Sorceress model since it is a good example, think of it when it is attacking another unit. The sorceress must first wait for the attack animation before launching her projectile. She lifts both her arms up and then releases a projectile. The backswing point is the field where you specify how long it takes for the model to finish the animation before launching it's attack. It gets as specific as that in the object editor.

 

[cacbo]

@Dagguh

So, agg can only decrease AC. When AC < BP then AC = BP + DP ???
Can you please explain me how dota hero with BP = 0.49 and DP = 1 can have AC 0.34 ?

thx

 

[cacbo]

Ok, i found out explanation for attack speed http://forums.dota-allstars.com/index.php?showtopic=33831&st=0

this is all u have to know:

BAT / ( 1 + IAS ) = Game Seconds Per Attack

BAT is Base Attack Time: The time in seconds between attacks without any increased attack speed (world editor's var)

IAS is Increased Attack Speed: How much faster you attack (100% IAS = 1.00 IAS)
As said in previous posts: agility points gives you IAS and that's WE var too.
The final IAS affecting your attack can range from -0.8 to 4. Anything less than -0.8 will act as -0.8, and anything more than 4 will act as 4.

 

[wolfman]

you can make uber attack speed, especially wit towers that dont have animation. I would show you in map but idk how, im too noob i guess, but if you tell me how to attach my map to this then i can show you that attack speed can be very very fast, prolly more than 100 per second

EDIT: ok figured out how to attach take a look at this. I changed the heroes missile so its easier to see maybe, but learn ur endurance aura all the way, summon pheonix if you wanna. Look at tower attack speed, its just uber fast. idk if it would stack if you gave tower item like golves of haste (first give it inventory), it might im not sure if that wud stack with endurance aura but if it did, that wud be even uber faster. And to make the attack speed increase amounts even more, hold shift when you select the value so you can change it to uber high or even negatives.

EDIT: ALSO, you see the animation, but he is attackin so fast that he releases multiple missiles in one animation sequence or whatever, usually when attack speed is increased, so is animation, but this is takin it to the extreme i guess.

 

[TheBlooddancer]

But animation will surely play faster.
if you've ever played Angel Arena, and know 'Algammon' You know, that he doesn't play the animation as fast as regular Illidan.

 

[Dagguh]

im little confused here :S

In dota heros who have BP/DP 0.5/1 can have attack cooldown 0.34. Why is that?? I tested it and it's obious that they attack faster then BP value. Also i checked this DotA Allstars Ranking - DotA Rank

Alright, I messed up a bit, but I was too alzy to edit this.
All I said before is true except:
Attack Cooldown starts along with Damage Point.

Everything between the quoted post and this one is absolute bullshit.

 

[terradont]

The backswing is how long the unit will take after the damage occur(or missile is being sent) until the end of the animation(even though the animation is longer or shorter).
There is another one over(or under) this one that defines how long after the animation has been started the damage will occur.
In other words, setting these to 0.01 and attack cooldown to 0.01, and i would guess that the unit would attack 100 times er second.

 

[cacbo]

Alright, I messed up a bit, but I was too alzy to edit this.
All I said before is true except:
Attack Cooldown starts along with Damage Point.

Everything between the quoted post and this one is absolute bullshit.

So, important thing that's not said is, that DP is decreasing on the same way as AC.

 

[Dagguh]

The backswing is how long the unit will take after the damage occur(or missile is being sent) until the end of the animation(even though the animation is longer or shorter).
There is another one over(or under) this one that defines how long after the animation has been started the damage will occur.
In other words, setting these to 0.01 and attack cooldown to 0.01, and i would guess that the unit would attack 100 times er second.

You ofc mean 50 attacks per second (0.01 + 0.01 = 0.02 ). If you would set the backswing to 0.000 then yes it would be 100 per second. And Attack Cooldown could be anywhere below the damagepoint and the results would be the same (e.g. AC = 0.000).

Even with these settings you won't get 50 attacks per second. I tested it out (just read the fckin' posts above yourself), and the max is somewhere between 45 and 46 attacks per second.

EDIT:

If you have 40% IAS then AC and DP will last 1/(1+0.4) their normal duraion. I am not sure about BP though.

I said it ffs! And btw the BP is also affected by IAS.

 

[terradont]

Yes, my bad -.-