Fleck's Melee Altered Combined (FMAC) v1.3b

[Macielos]

Mixing 40k with anime is an ultimate heresy.

 

[Blasterixx]

Decent custom melee map, my favorite and best race is by far the bandit race, they are so simple to play with and their units are also super simple but super effective and strong, especially with the uprades.

The sisters of battle race was decent, a bit complicated at first compared to the bandits but they weren't that bad, still had some fun playing with them.

- I found it impresive that the A.I. works for the two unique races, tho the bandits A.I. didnt seem to use the upgrades that increase the dmg and armor of the units and cuz of that they were kinda weak. (talking about the star upgrades that increase the dmg and armor with green stats)

- The heroes are interesting from the 2 new races but can't say the same for the tavern heroes, they kinda suck.

- While playing i got some fatal errors, i did play on the latest version of deforged so i guess that was the main issue, tho it only happened on the rocky ridge 8 player map from what i tested.

i rate this a solid 75 out of 100.

 

[deepstrasz]

It's OK that you've fused them but please keep one big pack for future add-ons.

Approved.

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[Fleck]

Decent custom melee map, my favorite and best race is by far the bandit race, they are so simple to play with and their units are also super simple but super effective and strong, especially with the uprades.

The sisters of battle race was decent, a bit complicated at first compared to the bandits but they weren't that bad, still had some fun playing with them.

- I found it impresive that the A.I. works for the two unique races, tho the bandits A.I. didnt seem to use the upgrades that increase the dmg and armor of the units and cuz of that they were kinda weak. (talking about the star upgrades that increase the dmg and armor with green stats)

- The heroes are interesting from the 2 new races but can't say the same for the tavern heroes, they kinda suck.

- While playing i got some fatal errors, i did play on the latest version of deforged so i guess that was the main issue, tho it only happened on the rocky ridge 8 player map from what i tested.

i rate this a solid 75 out of 100.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

The ai can't hire mercenaries to utilize those upgrades and only uses basic bandit and brigand with a bandit rider so yea. I thought about using AMAI but I have to learn and there's a question whether or not it causes crashes. I played some altered melee that uses AMAI and it causes crashes after some time. I suppose I can trigger them to spawn them mercs with the upgrades if they have the required buildings and resources in the future.

I will probably overhaul some abilities of the tavern heroes in the future.

I will try playing a full game on the Rocky Ridge map eventually to see if it happens for me too.

It's OK that you've fused them but please keep one big pack for future add-ons.

Can I ask you to clarify on that? You mean when I release a new race, I just add them to this one instead of a separate new thread? It will hinder gathering feedback for the new race that way.

 

[deepstrasz]

Can I ask you to clarify on that? You mean when I release a new race, I just add them to this one instead of a separate new thread? It will hinder gathering feedback for the new race that way.

No. It's OK to add them separately but for compilation maps/mods please don't make more, like, I don't know, anime races only rather than the whole bunch of factions.

 

[FlameofChange]

Yep, your sisters makes the game crash somewhat.
I don't know what causes it, but refining the triggers from GUI to JASS might filter most of them.
I suspect the Cannonness.

 

[Fleck]

Yep, your sisters makes the game crash somewhat.
I don't know what causes it, but refining the triggers from GUI to JASS might filter most of them.
I suspect the Cannonness.

Hi, thanks for the report.

That's beyond my ability. I'm purely a GUI mapper.

I will take a look at all the triggers, just in case. Then check Sister ai script next since it might cause crashes.

 

[Fleck]

I looked at the triggers, seems fine but there is room for improvements like disabling certain triggers when nobody is playing the bandit or sisters race. Even with triggers running every second, I don't think it is enough to cause a fatal crash.

I let map Rocky Ridge run with ai sisters and bandits while away from computer, seems like it crashed in 20-30 minutes. Tried it again, this time custom ai scripts disabled with almost all races mostly sisters and bandits with a random vanilla race, crashed within the similar timeframe like the first test.

Tested the Haven Hold, Dilapidated Fortress, Rockslide maps with ai sisters, bandits custom ai script enabled. It run for an hour before I closed the map. I did not test the smallest maps, but I finished a full game on Voidwind Plateau before I uploaded AGAM to the maps section.

So it led to me to believe something went wrong with porting AGAM to Rocky Ridge so I did it again with a downgraded map. But it still fatally crashed within 20-30 minutes. I do not think I can this fix so I will going replace Rocky Ridge with Ent Waltz from now on. I tested Ent Waltz afk for 1 hour so I think it is Rocky Ridge specific.

I also need to check if the SoB only race map version of Rocky Ridge also fatally crash too. (Finished afk testing of Sisters' Rocky Ridge for 1 hour, it did not crash. Might used that map as a base for AGAM for the future.)

Peeps, tell me if the other maps fatally crush or it was Rocky Ridge.

Edit: Sorry, reuploaded Ent Waltz. I forgotten to fix few triggers when porting to another map.
Edit 2: Sorry, reuploaded Ent Waltz again. Fixed corrupted icons for Heretic creep unit, probably of ~ in its filename.

 

[FlameofChange]

Oh boi, those bandits are extremely broken, going down at least at E from my notation concerning balance.
Heroes are OK (maybe the black flag ability could be reworked), and the basic quirks are interesting in their respective ways.
However, you are able to steamroll everything when reaching Tier 2-3, especially your own bandits from built seedy pubs.
In early game they could rush at second 0 because they can train military units from their main building.
Cheaper buildings means you have much more resources to work with, and thus you can pump more units than the enemy and steamroll again.
Many mercenaries are utterly useless since you can pump up :
► Enforcers which benefits from both regular and mercenary upgrades, cheaper than a knight but hitting much harder (and having shadow meld)
► 3 food berserkers
► Inner fire + Bloodlust
► Can spawn 3 heroes very very early (and could even cheese by going mercenary heroes)
Cherry on the shit it's quite luck based, because kobolds are useless and murlocs could maybe use a mutant to cripple heroes.

I'm not going to make a full review right now (schedule oblige), although the mercenary upgrade makes them very broken.
To give some perspective, this is how I would balance things up :
► Put building cost back to normal
► Increase cost of seedy pubs
► Reduce the mercenary rank upgrade effects (Goblin sapper with 400hp goes brrrrrr), at least for the HP
► A caster upgrade would be a plus
► Black flag being periodic and level limited instead of random
► Increase depot cost (too simple to spam to pump up upgrades)
► Building pillage upgrade for bandits ?
► T1-2-3 upgrade for the main building ; could be an exotic still equivalent way
► Reduce damage per dice for bandits since it stacks too well (you may compensate a bit by increasing the number of dice, you call)
► Basic bandit troops requires seedy pub
► Mercenary starts on cooldown when built or swapped

I might have forgot some details or two, however I'm eager to test it again some time.

 

[Fleck]

Thanks for the balance report, I been gone for a while so apologies for the late reply.
I will try to implement balance changes first in Bandits map first before porting over the update to FMAC.

In early game they could rush at second 0 because they can train military units from their main building.
Basic bandit troops requires seedy pub

Well, Naga's Temple of Tides can train Mur'gul Reavers then again the Naga race is considered overpowered. I will consider it.

Can spawn 3 heroes very very early (and could even cheese by going mercenary heroes)

Right, I can slow down bandit hero training by using Dependency Equivalents (Tier 2 - Tower Ruins, Tier 3 - Dragon Breeding Pit).

Mercenary starts on cooldown when built or swapped

Good idea, I can restrict Seedy Pubs and Tower Ruins to not have units available for hire right away once its built but players can circumvent it by buying Roll Gacha.

Reduce the mercenary rank upgrade effects (Goblin sapper with 400hp goes brrrrrr), at least for the HP

I can halve the hp bonus from 300 to 150. Also good catch I forgor them.

A caster upgrade would be a plus

Mercenary rank upgrades increases mana pool of the mercenary if its have mana. Should I make it separate from the mercenary rank upgrades?
Also, that requires editing the vanilla creeps which I prefer not to. Requiring mercenary spellcasters caster upgrades like a vanilla race to be able to cast their spells is a no go.

Black flag being periodic and level limited instead of random

Making Black Flag periodic seems OP to me but I can add level limit to the units defeated.

Lvl 1 Black Flag - 15% recruit chance to recruit defeated level 1-3 non-mechanical land units.
Lvl 2 Black Flag - 30% recruit chance to recruit defeated level 1-5 non-mechanical land units.
Lvl 3 Black Flag - 45% recruit chance to recruit defeated level 1-10 non-mechanical land units.

Does it seems balanced to you?

Increase depot cost (too simple to spam to pump up upgrades)
Increase cost of seedy pubs

Hidden Cache right? Since you didn't give a number, I think I will increase the gold cost from 120 to 125 and for Seedy Pub from 140g to 150g, 40l to 50l in the future update.

Building pillage upgrade for bandits ?

Well the bandits already have Spoils of War upgrade and the orcs already have that too. I refrained from using Pillage for the bandits to make it more unique.

This requires more thought, I will revisit this in the future. I feels like I delayed my new altered melee races long enough, so I will prioritize working on them for the time being. Anyway thanks again for the indepth balance report.

 

[FlameofChange]

Well, Naga's Temple of Tides can train Mur'gul Reavers then again the Naga race is considered overpowered. I will consider it.

Naga were never supposed to be a melee faction. This was added mainly for the AI and the few missions you control it.
Also this unit is cursed because why training a light unit where you can have T1 abominations with ensnare ?
So your example is not valid. Having a second 0 military unit available is very broken because it become the only strategy available.

Right, I can slow down bandit hero training by using Dependency Equivalents (Tier 2 - Tower Ruins, Tier 3 - Dragon Breeding Pit).

That would only fix part of the problem, because these buildings are built faster than teching up. Furthermore they also are their own requirements themselves. I got numerous solutions possible but I'll let you cook something from your own mind since it's more enjoyable for you !

Mercenary rank upgrades increases mana pool of the mercenary if its have mana. Should I make it separate from the mercenary rank upgrades?
Also, that requires editing the vanilla creeps which I prefer not to. Requiring mercenary spellcasters caster upgrades like a vanilla race to be able to cast their spells is a no go.

It would be safe to seperate them, or even create your own mercenary variants. Also why the allies would buy overpriced mercenaries which doesn't benefit from your upgrades ? Very situational too. I mean, it has space to be improved.

I can halve the hp bonus from 300 to 150. Also good catch I forgor them.

If you really want the map to be playable at previous versions, you might make alternates where it gives per level +25HP for light units and +50HP to heavier units. Or even separate the upgrade in two (three ?) to spread the power boost across light/heavy/ground/air/melee/ranged (cross the unconcerned out). Else I would definitely replace it by a % bonus instead.
The thing is it has a cursed dilemma : either boost the light unit a lot or the heavy units.
Compare the price and the power of your units with other melee ones, taking the upgrades & abilities in account.
In the late game your units are way too much cost effective. The dice stacking would orient the player to only spam the units with the highest damage.
For the caster upgrade, since the vanilla mercenaries already have so high mana, I would increase the mana regen instead.
Else it is free real estate for mana burns and feedback.

Hidden Cache right? Since you didn't give a number, I think I will increase the gold cost from 120 to 125 and for Seedy Pub from 140g to 150g, 40l to 50l in the future update.

My numbers would be 215 30 70 for the Hidden Cache, and 225 90 60 for the Seedy Pub, with a limit of 3 upgradable somewhere.
Yep. They are really that broken. And that's only for those two. The tents are much too easy to spam. If your really want cheaper tents, reduce their HP but keep the 20 wood cost and the build time of the farm.

Well the bandits already have Spoils of War upgrade and the orcs already have that too. I refrained from using Pillage for the bandits to make it more unique.

This requires more thought, I will revisit this in the future. I feels like I delayed my new altered melee races long enough, so I will prioritize working on them for the time being. Anyway thanks again for the indepth balance report.

+5 gold per level is almost fine, but +5 wood per level is a bit broken.
I would prefer a % cost based (i.e. with the natives GetUnitGoldCost and GetUnitWoodCost, iirc).
If you really want to keep the flat per level, I would do 4 gold per level and 4 wood per level-3, so you would not spawn free wood from killing a bunch of low level units ; or keep the 5 gold but take the upkeep in account. You call. The thing is spawning lumber from thin air is very strong as it is supposed to be a main economical bottleneck for strategy.
Building pillage would be a plus, but if you see it as a redundancy it's fine too.

One last thing, the cost reduction for mercenaries is almost too strong alone, so imagine with all of the other upgrades.
I would make it timed somewhat, with charges reloading somewhere in the UI. So the player might be able to scrap some benefit with strategy instead.
Or even apply it only to the gold cost and not the lumber, with a reduced effect.

[EDIT] After more tests cheesing the game, I got more feedback
☼ Chaplains have much better mana, mana regen plus having access to inner fire while being cheaper than forest troll priest.
☼ Spoils of War actually loot from summons and illusions, which makes it even more broken
☼ Custom mercenary heroes are globally underwhelming, but it's just a matter of some stat tweaks here and there
☼ Albedo's poison cloud perma-freeze the game, I suspect at higher level and/or with many units around
☼ Gawr Gura stormclouds disapear at death, they only appear again when learned again. You might need to respawn the clouds when resurected
☼ Shaltear
► Bloodpool seems not working. You might need bribe's damage engine as it is the most stable, complete and modern.
► Berserk requires berserk research
☼ Erufu ultimate doesn't increase the number of target since it doesn't add barrage nor any kind of multi attack. It is just attack speed right now

 

[Fleck]

☼ Spoils of War actually loot from summons and illusions, which makes it even more broken

Good catch, that is not intended. I will add more conditions to prevent that.

☼ Custom mercenary heroes are globally underwhelming, but it's just a matter of some stat tweaks here and there

Eh, it's probably because of custom abilities. I do plan to redo the earlier heroes abilities eventually...

☼ Albedo's poison cloud perma-freeze the game, I suspect at higher level and/or with many units around

This is the second report regarding Albedo's poison mist. I think because of the game patch. Personally it's fine for me. The Poison Mist triggering uses Wietlol's Effect Over Time System 2.3.1 which is prereforged. Ultimately I think it is both because reforged and the triggers being periodic. I will disable the custom races triggering if no one is playing as them in a future update to hopefully address this.

☼ Gawr Gura stormclouds disapear at death, they only appear again when learned again. You might need to respawn the clouds when resurected

But I already do that? The trigger for that is in the folder Custom Skills, trigger name Storm Clouds Revive. It only create Storm Clouds if the revived Gura have Storm Clouds passive ability. You can check that on hive by Preview Triggers.

► Bloodpool seems not working. You might need bribe's damage engine as it is the most stable, complete and modern.

Ah, I forgot to update source level of ability for unit in the Blood Pool trigger. Even if I want to, it's not openable for my patch version.

► Berserk requires berserk research

Shalltear's Blood Frenzy doesn't requires berserk research.

☼ Erufu ultimate doesn't increase the number of target since it doesn't add barrage nor any kind of multi attack. It is just attack speed right now

I double checked this on the ability Focus Fire and the alt erufu form. The ability Data - Alternate Form Unit, Data - Normal Form Unit are correct and the alt model have Multi-Shot Ultimate (Barrage) and Hid Temp Focus Fire Bonus Ultimate (Spell Book) in Abilities - Normal.

Hm, could it be that Game Data Set: Melee (Latest Patch) is the cause of these bugs for Blood Frenzy and Focus Fire?

Also I read your balance suggestions by the way and will implement eventually even though I didn't write a reply previously.

 

[FlameofChange]

Shalltear's Blood Frenzy doesn't requires berserk research.

Looks like it comes from Reforged shenaningans. It uses the default data here.
The trick would be to set the check requirement to false. In general that's one of my safeties concerning multiple versions.

I double checked this on the ability Focus Fire and the alt erufu form. The ability Data - Alternate Form Unit, Data - Normal Form Unit are correct and the alt model have Multi-Shot Ultimate (Barrage) and Hid Temp Focus Fire Bonus Ultimate (Spell Book) in Abilities - Normal.

I know why it confused me. It doesn't target buildings. My bad.

Also beware of the barrage which makes her DPS x4 for 60s, which is a bit broken in my taste (needs some further testing on that one, I'm not 100% sure), on top of the +10% attack speed. Why using endurance aura instead of gloves of haste ? Could be for the buff. Plus you might put some more explicit statistics on abilities, which could modernize it further. Furthermore the aura can target friendly units stacking on top of her, since the range is 1 and targets all friendlies. Just put targets to self and it should be good. Searing arrows don't stack with barrage too. Is this intentional ?

Concerning the anime-styled custom hero models, don't hesitate to increase their size since they are quite thin compared to the bulky units.

I learned proper triggering during later patches, so I'm not used to the previous tricks, i.e. spellbooks to hide abilities. That's one of the reasons I haven't found successfully my answer just by digging in the map.

 

[Fleck]

Looks like it comes from Reforged shenaningans. It uses the default data here.
The trick would be to set the check requirement to false. In general that's one of my safeties concerning multiple versions.

Hm, might have some unintended consequences so I will refrain from that. I don't think Game Data Set is suppose to affect custom abilities, I can understand if I simply edited/reskined the vanilla abilities.

Also beware of the barrage which makes her DPS x4 for 60s, which is a bit broken in my taste (needs some further testing on that one, I'm not 100% sure), on top of the +10% attack speed.

Noted. I think it is balance enough but if it is not enough I could reduce the movement speed during the ultimate duration.

Why using endurance aura instead of gloves of haste ? Could be for the buff. Plus you might put some more explicit statistics on abilities, which could modernize it further. Furthermore the aura can target friendly units stacking on top of her, since the range is 1 and targets all friendlies. Just put targets to self and it should be good.

Yea, I want a buff to visually show it. There's are also other concerns like does Gloves of Haste stack? I did google it but I'm not certain. I know in the older patches than 1.27 that Boots of Speed stacked but it no longer does. Perhaps it's the same with the Gloves of Haste so using auras is a safer bet. Of course, I agree with you on that though sometimes I forgot do so. I do remember being irked by some altered melee maps that doesn't says how much damage the ability dealt and so on. I thought a range of 1 would be enough but yea I will change aura targets allowed.

Searing arrows don't stack with barrage too. Is this intentional ?

More or less. Focus Fire might be overpowered if Searing Arrows allow work with Barrage too. I seen an example of making it work but it might mess with orb effects. I have not dabbled with orb effects yet besides I want to replace it with a different, unique autocast in the future like poison arrow, paralyze arrow, etc but I'm not sure to how detect autocast missile yet. Nothing seems to come to my mind regarding autocast in all altered melee that I played.

Surprising enough after searching about autocast abilities today I discovered an autocastable Poison Arrows ability existed already ingame so Searing Arrows will be replaced with this in a future update.

Concerning the anime-styled custom hero models, don't hesitate to increase their size since they are quite thin compared to the bulky units.

Yea, they are kinda thin though I scaled most of them to be about the same height of the unmounted vanilla heroes for consistency.

I learned proper triggering during later patches, so I'm not used to the previous tricks, i.e. spellbooks to hide abilities. That's one of the reasons I haven't found successfully my answer just by digging in the map.

Yea. Some of the old tricks do apply, some don't. I suppose you are of luck if you starting out on modelling like extracting models out of MPQ Archive using Magos Model Editor. This is still applicable to me but for peeps using Reforged, no. I don't know what even tools peeps use to open casc now.

I know you can hide abilities using Button Position -11, -11 instead of using disabled spellbooks but I heard it causes problems for mac players or something but I'm not sure which is another reason for me to use it.

I hope my triggering is easy to understand? I taken great lengths to organize it for myself and other peeps. I learned alot from other people's triggering and likewise wish to do the same. I'm fairly sure I'm the only one who currently use Wietlol's Effect Over Time System for stacking buffs and more configuration. This is no longer needed since Reforged do stack buffs now. Also it might be wise to use Editor Suffix for all your custom abilities. It will be buggy if a hero has duplicates of the same base spell (for example, two custom abilities based of carrion swarm in a single hero) which is all my abilities have Editor Suffixes so I know immediately what the base ability is.

 

[FlameofChange]

I hope my triggering is easy to understand? I taken great lengths to organize it for myself and other peeps. I learned alot from other people's triggering and likewise wish to do the same. I'm fairly sure I'm the only one who currently use Wietlol's Effect Over Time System for stacking buffs and more configuration. This is no longer needed since Reforged do stack buffs now. Also it might be wise to use Editor Suffix for all your custom abilities. It will be buggy if a hero has duplicates of the same base spell (for example, two custom abilities based of carrion swarm in a single hero) which is all my abilities have Editor Suffixes so I know immediately what the base ability is.

Well, it's much better organized than most of mappers down there. But last year I had a big streak of converting maps from GUI into JASS trigger by trigger.

 

[kop9991]

This map is awesome. I have spent a lot of time playing this map. Honestly, I think Your Bandit race combined with your Anime Heroes is broken. The Mercenary upgrade can apply to Tarven Heroes. That makes some Heroes become broken such as Creep-Killer Goblin Killer (and addition that Darkness orb is available in Bandit shop), Spell spamming Ainz Own Goal. This makes those heroes become a 1-man-army.

 

[Fleck]

This map is awesome. I have spent a lot of time playing this map. Honestly, I think Your Bandit race combined with your Anime Heroes is broken. The Mercenary upgrade can apply to Tarven Heroes. That makes some Heroes become broken such as Creep-Killer Goblin Killer (and addition that Darkness orb is available in Bandit shop), Spell spamming Ainz Own Goal. This makes those heroes become a 1-man-army.

Thanks for the feedback! I'm glad you think so

I will look into the Mercenary Upgrade issue mentioned and will fix if true in the next update.

Hm, I'm actually struggling to think of new orb ideas and there is also a distinct lack of orb models too. I might replace Orb of Darkness with Orb of Slow/etc in the next version.

Once again, thanks!

 

[kop9991]

I don't think changing the orb model is a good idea. Take into account that there is not much for you to choose from. I believe first you can remove the upgrade for your tavern heroes. It is quite a match in the time I complete Mercenary Upgrade + get enough full resources for 3 heroes. I could get 3 Heroes with lvl 3 stats at 2nd-3rd minute of the game. Changing the orb can only make me send 1 labor to build a seedy pub near enemy base to ensure my army is kept built up

 

[Fleck]

I don't think changing the orb model is a good idea. Take into account that there is not much for you to choose from. I believe first you can remove the upgrade for your tavern heroes. It is quite a match in the time I complete Mercenary Upgrade + get enough full resources for 3 heroes. I could get 3 Heroes with lvl 3 stats at 2nd-3rd minute of the game. Changing the orb can only make me send 1 labor to build a seedy pub near enemy base to ensure my army is kept built up

Upgrading FMAC to the next version will take some time. I have to port the new updates from AGAM to FMAC which includes models, icons, and triggers. And ensuring the ported abilities works properly through playtesting too.

From the time being, I have updated all FMAC maps to v1.3b that address the tavern bug issue.

Also now that I think about I did semi-random items for the Bandits' Black Market, perhaps the buyable orb item for the Bandits should cycle randomly from the 4 default races instead which I might do in the next update.

Thanks for the feedback again!

 

[kop9991]

thank you for your hearing and your work