Dragon Nest TD v1.82

[Paillan]

Sounds like a good map in paper, although the description needs a rewap and an extention, you could for example describe the eggs, the creeps as well as other details to apeal more to players. I suggest using one tof the templates that I always add in my reviews.
I also think that more screenshots could be used.

Set to Awaiting update
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[GamerSmurf]

Thank you for the detailed response Paillan. I'm new to both this forum and uploading one of my maps.

I will rewap and extent the discription along with all the other things you have asked me to do. This will be done in several steps, so the first update will not include everything.

 

[Paillan]

Thank you for the detailed response Paillan. I'm new to both this forum and uploading one of my maps.

I will rewap and extent the discription along with all the other things you have asked me to do. This will be done in several steps, so the first update will not include everything.

Don't worry, take your time!

 

[GamerSmurf]

I think that I have done everything you asked me to do. Will you take another look at it to see if I missed anything?

 

[deepstrasz]

1. Where did you take the loading screen from?
2. Terrain has 95% no tile and height variation.
3. Research Food has no DISBTN (icon looks like a green square on F10/pause). Also, the icon looks like that of a passive ability. Use these to make a proper icon:

Spoiler

Button Manager v1.8.2
BLP Lab v0.5.0
Complete Icon Tutorial - All About Icons
How to Make an Icon

4. Research Income and Sell have the same icon.
5. Enemy units won't know how to attack towers or the egg if they're melee and on lower ground. Instead, they will just wander near the edge of the cliff while the towers shoot them. Make them attack the towers blocking the way? They have little HP anyway.
6. Not letting the the player block the way to the egg is a lazy way of not implementing something to disable blocking it. At least write a proper description of the game in the Quest Log and mention about this.
7. Would be nice to find some models to replace units used as towers since they attack with their back or side to the enemy.
8. Why are the upgrades of creeps still available in singleplayer?
9. Multishot changes places with Upgrade to Lightning Tower. Set the icon positions properly.
10. What about a proper description for the Maze Tower?
11. For instance Amethyst Tower's upgrades don't change its aspect at all; make it a little bigger/change hue to differentiate levels?

You could make the game more interesting by adding ranged enemy units or even flying ones (melee+ranged).
Would be nice to write a /maximum number of upgrades in the title of each upgrade.

Set to Awaiting Update.

 

[GamerSmurf]

1. Where did you take the loading screen from?
2. Terrain has 95% no tile and height variation.
3. Research Food has no DISBTN (icon looks like a green square on F10/pause). Also, the icon looks like that of a passive ability. Use these to make a proper icon:

Spoiler

Button Manager v1.8.2
BLP Lab v0.5.0
Complete Icon Tutorial - All About Icons
How to Make an Icon

4. Research Income and Sell have the same icon.
5. Enemy units won't know how to attack towers or the egg if they're melee and on lower ground. Instead, they will just wander near the edge of the cliff while the towers shoot them. Make them attack the towers blocking the way? They have little HP anyway.
6. Not letting the the player block the way to the egg is a lazy way of not implementing something to disable blocking it. At least write a proper description of the game in the Quest Log and mention about this.
7. Would be nice to find some models to replace units used as towers since they attack with their back or side to the enemy.
8. Why are the upgrades of creeps still available in singleplayer?
9. Multishot changes places with Upgrade to Lightning Tower. Set the icon positions properly.
10. What about a proper description for the Maze Tower?
11. For instance Amethyst Tower's upgrades don't change its aspect at all; make it a little bigger/change hue to differentiate levels?

You could make the game more interesting by adding ranged enemy units or even flying ones (melee+ranged).
Would be nice to write a /maximum number of upgrades in the title of each upgrade.

Set to Awaiting Update.

Thank you for the review.
1: Link added in credits
2: Terrain tile variation has been improved. In the next update I’ll add more props to improve the terrain further
3: Changed icon of Research Food(with DISBTN)
4: Change icon of Research Income(with DISBTN)
5: This behavior is likely to happen, when and only when, a player is blocking. With many many attempts, I have tried to change this but so far it has not worked. I can further explain, but you might not be interested in reading about all the attempts and problems that follows.
Instead, I have created an antiblock system with an invisible referee unit. First you get a warning that you are blocking. Second time your egg loses half of its hp. Third time you lose the game.
6: I’m sorry if I am reading this the wrong way, but I wouldn’t say that my antiblock system is a lazy way of not letting players block. To make a code that disables a player from blocking the path to the egg is really difficult to make for a mapmaker of my skill. I’ve searched on hiveworkshop and thehelper.net/forums/world-editor-help.58/ to learn how to prevent players from blocking. It would be nice to have an antiblock system like in the map Mazing Contest, but I think it is impossible to make a similar one in this map
7: I will try to find models that can replace the units, but it has not been not in this update
8: Creep upgrades are not available in single player anymore
9: Fixed
10: Changed the description from “Has no attack or abilities” to “Useful for mazing at the beginning of the game. It has no attack but can be upgraded to several towers.”
11: The Amethyst Tower now increases its size with each upgrade like the other towers do

I have thought about adding a greater variety for the creeps, but range and flying units will create a lot of issues of balancing in regards to egg placement and how some egg abilities need the creeps to walk near the egg. But I’m still working on making more upgrades to make it more interesting

The description of each upgrade now contains “This upgrade has X levels.”

 

[deepstrasz]

Water Strike's icon could look like a passive ability's. Same for Gust of Wind.
Guard Tower's upgrade icon is not the Scout Tower but the Guard Tower's. Wait. What's the use of the Guard Tower upgrading to an Arrow Tower when you can build both of them from the start? The gold cost in case of emergencies? For some reason, the buildings seem to be considered different (cannot double click select them both).

The description of each upgrade now contains “This upgrade has X levels.”

Really? Where? It only mentions the current level.

Cautiously set to Approved.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Water Strike's icon could look like a passive ability's. Same for Gust of Wind.
Guard Tower's upgrade icon is not the Scout Tower but the Guard Tower's. Wait. What's the use of the Guard Tower upgrading to an Arrow Tower when you can build both of them from the start? The gold cost in case of emergencies? For some reason, the buildings seem to be considered different (cannot double click select them both).

Really? Where? It only mentions the current level.

Cautiously set to Approved.

The Water Strike is just the Frost Arrow icon(ReplaceableTextures\CommandButtons\BTNColdArrows.blp) whereas the Gust of Wind is the Tornado icon(ReplaceableTextures\CommandButtons\BTNTornado.blp)
I don't think they look like passive abilities.

The Maze Tower is used for mazing at the beginning as they only cost food. Mid and late game you need at bigger maze where the Guard Tower can used for mazing instead as it is the cheapest.
I'll remove the Arrow Tower from the builder, so you only can get it by upgrading Guard Tower(it's a bit confusing as it is now)

The upgrades at the Great Hall all has "This upgrade has X levels". I included it in the extented tooltip instead of the title.

 

[deepstrasz]

I don't think they look like passive abilities.

They don't but they should as they are passive abilities. You don't have to click on them neither are they autocast based (like Searing Arrows for example).

The upgrades at the Great Hall all has "This upgrade has X levels". I included it in the extented tooltip instead of the title.

Hmm... didn't see that. But I was also referring to the tower level too.

 

[Paillan]

It's possible to block the path, kill most of the creeps you are against, unblock the path and not loose health for blocking the path. This means that killing creeps is very easy by abusing the block and unblocking. You need to fix this, it's a very problematic bug.

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A changelog in the first post would be helpful to reviewers and notify fans about the newest implementations to your map.

If you want more reviews, come here:
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[GamerSmurf]

It's possible to block the path, kill most of the creeps you are against, unblock the path and not loose health for blocking the path. This means that killing creeps is very easy by abusing the block and unblocking. You need to fix this, it's a very problematic bug.

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Screenshots could attract more players to download your work. Make the best of them.

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After a lot of testing I have fixed the creeps behaviour. When you block the path to your egg the creeps will attack one or several of your towers(likely those creating the shortest distance to the egg). When this happens the creeps are ordered to walk to the egg again and the tower hp is set to 50%. If the path is still blocked, the tower hp will be set to 0% and others towers might get destroyed in the proces. I have kept the old antiblock system too, as it works as a warning before the creeps will attack. I might remove the penalties from that system later on as the creeps turn very aggressive when blocking now.

They don't but they should as they are passive abilities. You don't have to click on them neither are they autocast based (like Searing Arrows for example).

Hmm... didn't see that. But I was also referring to the tower level too.

I have improved the passive icons so they all look like passive icons as they should.

 

[Paillan]

maybe you could add more minigames, one minigame is boring quite fast. Also, make upgrades more interesting perhaps (this are only optional stuff)

 

[Paillan]

Critical bugs were fixed as asked in last moderation. I see no reason to not put this back to approved state.

Set to Approved
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Screenshots could attract more players to download your work. Make the best of them.

A credits list is required where the names of the resource (models, skins, icons, spells, sound etc.) authors are mentioned along with the specific resource. It would be a luxury to have links leading to the used resources. Credits in the Quest Log would be appreciated.

A changelog in the first post would be helpful to reviewers and notify fans about the newest implementations to your map.

If you want more reviews, come here:
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[Wark]

GamerSmurf, I have a suggestion for "tower" units: try using an actual unit as the base unit for the structure. There's a tutorial for this on the Hive:
Tower Turning Tutorial

 

[GamerSmurf]

GamerSmurf, I have a suggestion for "tower" units: try using an actual unit as the base unit for the structure. There's a tutorial for this on the Hive:
Tower Turning Tutorial

Thanks. I have a few concerns about the Acquisition Range being creater than the actual range due to the range upgrades. If this causes the unit to look at the target before attacking the unit it might look funny.

But I'll have a look at it before the next update

 

[Abovegame]

Remember playing this haha

 

[GamerSmurf]

Remember playing this haha

I was curious so I looked at the 50 times I have hosted the map. It seems like you have played version 1.27 So many improvements since then

 

[GamerSmurf]

GamerSmurf, I have a suggestion for "tower" units: try using an actual unit as the base unit for the structure. There's a tutorial for this on the Hive:
Tower Turning Tutorial

Have you tried the tutorial Wark? The tutorial recommends using a unit, but not that you have to. I have 70 towers in my map and I have some problems making the towers able to turn. When I follow the tutorial on a Guard Tower with a unit model, the game closes as soon I start building the tower.

 

[Wark]

the game closes as soon I start building the tower.

Strange. I tried the tutorial and had its example going: a gryphon rider turning and throwing hammers.
I am not using it in large scale however. I was experimenting with it so that I can figure out how to "build" units instead of training them.

 

[Deleted member 247165]

This TD is really cool! I am looking forward to see how will be the next update. 5/5

 

[Sirmarkis29]

Funny map and very addictive i gona give a rating in the new updates.
Good luck and have a good day. :>

 

[Yugata]

Pretty awesome map! I had fun playing and already ran through 3 games... Granted I lost all of them but let's ignore that.
A couple of hiccups that I ran into when playing the game:

1) On my first playthrough of the game, I was able to at least reach the bonus wave to receive a second egg effect. I went with lightning assuming that it was a global-ish effect. I mean it didn't say anything about a single tower, nor that it had a cast range limit. Water and Ice both say "nearby creeps" so maybe lightning should mention that it effects a single nearby tower. "Increased attack speed on a nearby tower" maybe?

2) The water tower feels extremely underwhelming. Compared to the lightning tower (god that tower is so awesome!) it just doesn't seem to deal much damage despite have 7 upgrades. The lightning tower deals ~200 damage to 4 targets, so lets say that's a damage value of 800. The water tower has ~260 (i think?) and bounces only once, so it has a damage value of ~520. Being the only normal type tower (the only one I saw anyway >_>) it felt kind of bad to spam this to counter the armor that basically every other type was weak against, especially since it has 7 upgrades compared to the 6 upgrades that other towers have.

Really those are the only things that I can immediately point out. I haven't gone through the advanced towers yet, so I don't know if there's some op combo I'm missing. Game is awesome, and I love the random comments!

 

[GamerSmurf]

Pretty awesome map! I had fun playing and already ran through 3 games... Granted I lost all of them but let's ignore that.
A couple of hiccups that I ran into when playing the game:

1) On my first playthrough of the game, I was able to at least reach the bonus wave to receive a second egg effect. I went with lightning assuming that it was a global-ish effect. I mean it didn't say anything about a single tower, nor that it had a cast range limit. Water and Ice both say "nearby creeps" so maybe lightning should mention that it effects a single nearby tower. "Increased attack speed on a nearby tower" maybe?

2) The water tower feels extremely underwhelming. Compared to the lightning tower (god that tower is so awesome!) it just doesn't seem to deal much damage despite have 7 upgrades. The lightning tower deals ~200 damage to 4 targets, so lets say that's a damage value of 800. The water tower has ~260 (i think?) and bounces only once, so it has a damage value of ~520. Being the only normal type tower (the only one I saw anyway >_>) it felt kind of bad to spam this to counter the armor that basically every other type was weak against, especially since it has 7 upgrades compared to the 6 upgrades that other towers have.

Really those are the only things that I can immediately point out. I haven't gone through the advanced towers yet, so I don't know if there's some op combo I'm missing. Game is awesome, and I love the random comments!

Thanks for reply Yugata. It's much easier to update the game with comments from players. It is hard to survive all 30 waves in single player, but if you manage to then you can defeat most players in multiplayer

1) I have changed the range limit for the lightning egg ability from 800 to 2000 and changed the text to "Increased attack speed on a nearby tower". With new players building towers far from the egg this is a good change so they can use the ability and aren't "punished" for building a bit different.

2) The towers have 5 to 10 upgrades, but it more the cost that I use to calculate the damage the tower should have. Level 6 Lightning tower deals 205(4 targets: 820) and costs 865 gold including upgrades while the Aqua Tower level 7 deals (378+(378*0.5))/1.2 = 472.5 damage and costs 505 gold including upgrades. So the damage compared to cost is almost the same. The lightning towers has more range but the cost the calculated based on the tower hitting 4 target, which it doesn't alway do. I'll test the Aqua tower a bit more. Maybe the range wil be increased from 500 to 600(without the range upgrade. There is other balancing factors, but i might bore you if I continue
The advanded tower section has a melee tower with normal damage type and a Wolf Caller Tower with normal damage type too.

 

[Paillan]

I would like you to explain to me how the warning system for blocking the path works in depth, it seems to not be working properly sometimes.
I would also like too address that the first time someone breaks the rule of blocking, they should receive egg damage at the end of that round and only IF they keep blocking.
Finally, in a more personal view, you should completely separate the mini game area and the lumber harvesting area from the rest of the map, while you are at that, maybe you could add more mini mages, being able to play any of those at random.

 

[GamerSmurf]

I would like you to explain to me how the warning system for blocking the path works in depth, it seems to not be working properly sometimes.
I would also like too address that the first time someone breaks the rule of blocking, they should receive egg damage at the end of that round and only IF they keep blocking.
Finally, in a more personal view, you should completely separate the mini game area and the lumber harvesting area from the rest of the map, while you are at that, maybe you could add more mini mages, being able to play any of those at random.

When a wave starts a invisible ”referee” unit is spawned at each players egg and is ordered to walk towards the spawn location for the creeps. Every 5 seconds a trigger runs that sets a variable to the location of each referee. 2 seconds later the referee location is set to another variable. If the two variables are equal then a player gets a warning and a “warning counter” for that player is increased by one.

I could spawn a referee unit every time a player starts building a tower to make the antiblock more efficient, but that would cause some problems/annoyance for players playing the game right. I can explain, but this is getting to long to read already.

The last 10 times I have hosted my map at least one player has blocked the path to the egg by accident. It normally takes them about 15-30 seconds to find the block so the “if they keep blocking part” will not work for most people. After the first block people tend not to block for the rest of the game, so I don’t think there should be any penalty for the first block.

I’ll look into separating the mini game and lumber area for the next update. Have you played the mini game? Normally people have fun playing the mini game two times during the map. I could make a mini game or two more, but I don’t like the mini games to be the focus of the map. Right now the playtime is about 45-60 minutes. Longer isn’t always better, but I don’t know what length most people prefer.

 

[Paillan]

If you play the map a lot the minigame becomes redundant, that's my concern.
I think you should make paths visible for the player, this being a TD and all, such a system would help a lot to know when placing a tower will block the path and when not. I have at least lost 3 times by blocking when I though units could walk in a 1 man line, selling the tower that blocked, putting it nearby again (thinking "surely now the location is right. Right?") to make a decent maze.
You should also add water towers and a water zone in general (amphibious creeps would be a nice idea with this) too add more variance, if you want of course.
Overall I really like this map

 

[GamerSmurf]

If you play the map a lot the minigame becomes redundant, that's my concern.
I think you should make paths visible for the player, this being a TD and all, such a system would help a lot to know when placing a tower will block the path and when not. I have at least lost 3 times by blocking when I though units could walk in a 1 man line, selling the tower that blocked, putting it nearby again (thinking "surely now the location is right. Right?") to make a decent maze.
You should also add water towers and a water zone in general (amphibious creeps would be a nice idea with this) too add more variance, if you want of course.
Overall I really like this map

I'll make 2 extra mini games and choose them by random(still only for multiplayer). It might not be in the next update, but at least in the one after that. Right now I think the both games will be using the same missile bounce skill used in the current minigame, but with another focus.

With visible path you mean a visible antiblock unit? Not sure what you mean by 1 man line either But yes, you have to be careful where you place your buildings.
Besides the triggered antiblock unit spawned before each wave, I could give each egg an ability to spawn an antiblock unit to check if you block(a unit looking like the antiblock unit, but doesn't give warnings) to help the players detect if they are blocking.

In the newest update I added a Wyrm Tower that can be placed in water(changing its damage type to chaos if placed in water). I might add more water towers later.
The movement type amphbious causes some problems because they can't stand, walk or attack close to each other. This will make creeps attack towers even if you are not blocking the path and you are leaking more than 2-3 creeps to the egg.

 

[Eat_Bacon_Daily]

Hai I didn't know you posted this map on HIVE.
I played it a few months ago (So and older version) and I have to say I had a very good time! The concept is unique from any other TD iv'e ever played and I thought there was something very satisfying about picking a pre-defined area and building from it. It felt kinda like building your own little base mixed into the tower defense. The towers are feel good to use. Also the mini-game was a nice break from the traditional gameplay and TBH the mini-game is actually pretty darn fun. I love this map!
Though it requires some work (I haven't played your current version so maybe these issues are addressed) The whole thing revolving around wood seemed kinda pointless, some areas are clearly better building spots than others (the spiral in the bottom left is really strong) and I was able to beat the whole game using only 2 multishot towers (I forget their in-game name). These are very small issues that I hope you fix, because I can't wait the jump into another game of this! Keep up the excellent work man!

 

[GamerSmurf]

Hai I didn't know you posted this map on HIVE.
I played it a few months ago (So and older version) and I have to say I had a very good time! The concept is unique from any other TD iv'e ever played and I thought there was something very satisfying about picking a pre-defined area and building from it. It felt kinda like building your own little base mixed into the tower defense. The towers are feel good to use. Also the mini-game was a nice break from the traditional gameplay and TBH the mini-game is actually pretty darn fun. I love this map!
Though it requires some work (I haven't played your current version so maybe these issues are addressed) The whole thing revolving around wood seemed kinda pointless, some areas are clearly better building spots than others (the spiral in the bottom left is really strong) and I was able to beat the whole game using only 2 multishot towers (I forget their in-game name). These are very small issues that I hope you fix, because I can't wait the jump into another game of this! Keep up the excellent work man!

The concept and the "feel" that you are describing is just what I am going for. So thank you. If its some months ago, then alot has been added and improved. You can see the changelog to see the added content.

The idea with lumber is to upgrade your opponents creeps so the game becomes competetive. This also gives some variation to the game as you should deside which upgrade is best against your opponents towers and come up with a strategy to get peons early. In the version I am working on right now your income increases with a few gold based on the amount of lumber you use on creep upgrades. If you have beaten the game with just two lightning towers(multi tower) then your creeps have not been upgraded by opponents.

In regards to the area spots I'm always trying to update the terrain so the weak areas get a small improvement. There are many good areas and the spiral at the bottom is one of them, but it is not as strong as it seems for new players. It is an easy area to build from and exploit even for new players, but other areas are just as good or even better when you learn how to use them. It's not unusual that new players think I'm building at the best area n the map...and I change my area very often

 

[Paillan]

Have you ever though of adding a DDS? That way when a creep is damaged you could detect for which player the creep was meant and which player attacked it, therefore if it's not the same player, the creep takes no damage (would also require to store the units).
That way you could increase the number of players.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Have you ever though of adding a DDS? That way when a creep is damaged you could detect for which player the creep was meant and which player attacked it, therefore if it's not the same player, the creep takes no damage (would also require to store the units).
That way you could increase the number of players.

I've added a DDS in one of the first versions to get the gameplay a better performance. It could also increase the number of players, but more than 9 players would be too much for this map size. If not 8.

However, if the DDS only can be used when a creep takes damage, then players could one shot creeps meant for other players and get the bounty. Towers like Lightning Tower(Multi shot) and Demon Tower(immolation) could also give some problems.

In my experience some players wanna cheat by killing other players creeps. Right now they can't and I like to keep it like that Maybe it can be done with the DDS

 

[dhungsttt]

Favorite map at the moment

 

[GamerSmurf]

Favorite map at the moment

Thanks. I've had a break from the map for some months now after getting my first job after my studies, but I'm starting to develop the map again.

 

[GamerSmurf]

New version of the map. For the next update I will focus on creating more minigames.

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Hi, just a quick question.

When upgrade "increase end of round gold by 2" after I upgrade "increase end of round gold by 100%", is this +2 affected by the increase by 100%?

 

[GamerSmurf]

Hi, just a quick question.

When upgrade "increase end of round gold by 2" after I upgrade "increase end of round gold by 100%", is this +2 affected by the increase by 100%?

Hi SlumberTurtle. The two end round gold upgrades do not stack.

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Hi SlumberTurtle. The two end round gold upgrades do not stack.

Oh...

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Hi, I just played solo and won the game (took me a few days to win this for the first time). I made a Youtube video. The video is a replay.
The game is very fun and very hard to beat solo. I will try different towers and locations and strategies.

Egg Abilities:shadow, snow, ice.

5 of the Max towers: druid, demon, shaman, shadow elemental and a second shadow elemental

number of peons: 2

Edit:

1. I played again at the spiral mountain but I built 2 druid and it became easier ( no shaman this time); two druid towers were next to each other;
2. I played at the bottom left corner, it is easier to win than the spiral mountain, but the tower placement is harder; here is a video:

egg: wind, water, ice;
tower: druid, druid, demon, shadow, shadow.
3. Now the 3rd location where I beat the game
Here is also a video:

egg: wind , ice, water
tower: druid, druid, demon, demon, demon.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Hi, I just played solo and won the game (took me a few days to win this for the first time). I made a Youtube video. The video is a replay.
The game is very fun and very hard to beat solo. I will try different towers and locations and strategies.

Egg Abilities:shadow, snow, ice.

5 of the Max towers: druid, demon, shaman, shadow elemental and a second shadow elemental

number of peons: 2

Edit:

1. I played again at the spiral mountain but I built 2 druid and it became easier ( no shaman this time); two druid towers were next to each other;
2. I played at the bottom left corner, it is easier to win than the spiral mountain, but the tower placement is harder; here is a video:

egg: wind, water, ice;
tower: druid, druid, demon, shadow, shadow.
3. Now the 3rd location where I beat the game took me the longest to figure out the placement of towers.... this location is the big flat plateau.
It is easier to win, but the tower placement is extremely hard in my strategy.
Here is also a video:

egg: wind , ice, water
tower: druid, druid, demon, demon, demon.

Great videos SlumberTurtle! The first two where using a variation of the placements I have tried yet. And I have played each location alot.

When using aoe towers like Demon and Druid towers it can be very strong to place them close like you do in the third video.

If you want more challenges you can always try new locations or try to beat the game with more peons

If you find a location you don't think is possible to win the game just message me. Then I'll try to beat the game at that location(if I can't I'll make the location better)

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Today I was playing this map online, and found some player exploiting some mechanics. He needs only 1 tower to do damage and he uses maze tower to alter the path constantly during a round ..... so in theory, he can even kill everything during the bonus wave....

 

[GamerSmurf]

Today I was playing this map online, and found some player exploiting some mechanics. He needs only 1 tower to do damage and he uses maze tower to alter the path constantly during a round ..... so in theory, he can even kill everything during the bonus wave....

This is called juggling and I'm starting to see it more often in my map if a player has played it some times. In version 1.73 players can't build towers near creeps(range 175). This is increased to 600 in the next version and a bug with the antiblock system has been fixed.

So far it works great and the selling time for maze towers might be reduced(The 8 seconds selling time was meant to prevent juggling but failed to do so in some cases)

 

[SlumberTurtle]

This is called juggling and I'm starting to see it more often in my map if a player has played it some times. In version 1.73 players can't build towers near creeps(range 175). This is increased to 600 in the next version and a bug with the antiblock system has been fixed.

So far it works great and the selling time for maze towers might be reduced(The 8 seconds selling time was meant to prevent juggling but failed to do so in some cases)

Hi, so it is called juggling, huh. I think one easy way to prevent players from doing this is to not allow players to build anything during a wave.
Along with this, I have a few more suggestions related to this:
1. The timer between 2 waves could be longer. Currently it is 3 seconds, but I think 30 seconds would be better (and players can click "Ready" in their builder to start the wave earlier if all players have clicked; also, the maze tower could be sold instantly, since "juggling" is already prevented by not allowing players to build anything during a wave.
2. Gold reward per kill. This may be removed and the gold reward may be added to the end of round bonuses, but it is not doubled by the Income research.

Also, I have a few more suggestions, after I have played this game for a while:
1. Different modes: currently, most players who have played this map for at least a few times would pick just a few favorite locations to place their egg every time they play. I suggest that the red player should select from the following modes:
AP (all placement)mode: players can place their eggs at any place they want, just like right now;
AR (all ramdom) mode: each player is randomly given a 20x20 grid at the beginning of the game, where they are allowed to place their eggs there, but they will be allowed to build towers anywhere after placement of the eggs; each player is given a different 20x20 grids;
RD (random draft) mode: all players are give a set of the same random (2*number of players) 20x20 grids, where they are allowed to place their eggs there, but once one player has placed his egg at one location, the other players won't be allowed to place their eggs there.

After having played this map for a while, I have realized that no matter where I place my egg, I can probably beat wave 30 solo (with 12 peons). I think this is true for most players who have played this game enough of times. The AR and RD modes make the game more challenging and fun for experienced players.



2. Peons gain gold while chopping wood. This one might be against your design philosophy. I am not sure whether you intend to have a cap on the total value of towers a player can have. Currently players have no way to gain more gold (except gold egg and perhaps also wind egg) and naturally this puts an obvious limit on how much total value of towers one player can have.
While I was playing yesterday, 2 players complained that there weren't many variations in strategies: if you want to play aggressively, build peons to destroy other players; if you intend to defend, then buy only 1 or 2 peons.
So I suggest the following:
Each time when a peon brings back lumber to the Great Hall, there is a small chance that the lumber is :
A. completely lost and the player gains nothing;
B. lost but the player gains 1 gold instead;
C. gained as normal
And also, a research choice could be made in the Great Hall to increase either the chance of B or C but not both.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Thank you for the respond and ideas. I have alot of comments

I think most players will complain and be frustrated if they can't build during rounds and the number of starting strategies will be reduced. The timer was about 25 seconds when I started and most players didn't like the waiting time. 30 seconds will make the game 15 minutes longer.
Removing the gold per kill will also reduce some strategies or the number of choices during the waves and this give less variation in TDs.

Different modes

I like the idea of different modes. Before I uploaded the map on the Hive it had two modes. Survival and Co-op, but the last one was very difficult to balance and players wasn't good at building together. I like your ideas and will look in to it in a later version.

After having played this map for a while, I have realized that no matter where I place my egg, I can probably beat wave 30 solo (with 12 peons). I think this is true for most players who have played this game enough of times

This is quite a statement Do you mean beating wave 30 with all creep abilities and about 8 extra creeps? Normally players join my map several times and it's less than 5% that survive all 30 waves. It's not only the number of peons that matters but also how fast you can get them. This will increase you income and more lumber to upgrade opponents creeps.

Currently players have no way to gain more gold

You get more gold by getting a high income early on, researching the increased income early or by selecting Gold/Wind egg. For a TD this is fine I think.

2 players complained that there weren't many variations in strategies: if you want to play aggressively, build peons to destroy other players; if you intend to defend, then buy only 1 or 2 peons.

I disagree(surprice). Do you agree with the two variations? I can mention a lot of strategies to give you an advantage based on the location, egg and/or towers you select. Some of them might seem like small advantages, but through a whole game they add up.
I can give you some examples if you like.

I really like the idea. I might disagree with most of them, but maybe some players agree with you on some of the ideas

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Thank you for the respond and ideas. I have alot of comments

This is quite a statement Do you mean beating wave 30 with all creep abilities and about 8 extra creeps? Normally players join my map several times and it's less than 5% that survive all 30 waves. It's not only the number of peons that matters but also how fast you can get them. This will increase you income and more lumber to upgrade opponents creeps.

I play solo most of the time. So yes they are fully upgraded. And when I played online with other players, there were sometimes fully upgraded 35 creeps (15 extra) and we beat them easily, but only if we have good egg drop locations.

At random locations when playing solo, I can beat fully upgraded waves with 8 extra; at 3 (for now I have tried this 3) specific locations, I can beat fully upgraded wave +15 extra.
The 3 good locations are:
1. bottom left. (easily >40 k damage during the first bonus wave)
2.center of the map ( actually, it is the starting location of the 6 dragons); (35k -40 k damage during the first bonus wave)
3. the huge plateau near the bottom right. (35k-40k damage during the first bonus wave)
4. (note: the "spiral mountain" is not as good as the above 3, even though it is the first location where I beat 30 waves solo; therefore, I am not including it in the list of "good locations")

Example video link : fully upgraded creeps +15 extra (fully upgraded 35 creeps)

Two players in this video both beat fully upgraded creeps + 15 extra creeps (35 creeps in total). He beat it because I told him what to build......

Also, peons don't increase the income. It roughly takes over 20-25 waves to get back the gold spent on peon, according to my calculation/estimation; so in general, only peons bought before wave 5 can generate income. I thought this was your intention.

You get more gold by getting a high income early on, researching the increased income early or by selecting Gold/Wind egg. For a TD this is fine I think.

I always do the income research before the end of wave 5 (I use wind egg). But it makes no difference at all: at wave 30, I can have 4 maxed expensive towers or 6 maxed cheap towers; Gold egg is the only way to bypass this limit.

My general strategy has no variation at all:

1.1 maxed Demon tower;
2-4 maxed druid tower;
0-1 maxed Animal cage;
0-1 maxed Shadow elemental tower;

2.only 4 peons before the first bonus wave; even though the towers are completely overly built, I only buy 4 peons. (40k -60 k damage during this first bonus wave; 100k-150k damage during the second).
12 peons immediately after the first bonus wave (as soon as possible)

3.
Egg:
a.wind (starting ability)
b.ice (first bonus wave)
c.water (second bonus wave)

4.the entrance of my maze is physically close to the exit (egg).

5. a very important maze strategy that is hard to explain here.

Edit:

There is another good location that I identified, besides the bottom left, the center map, the near bottom right. Solo beating wave 30 is also easy here. This location is by no means random. I chose it very carefully. The egg drop here is very meticulous. Most players who try to replicate this video will drop the egg wrong on their first try, I think.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Two players in this video both beat fully upgraded creeps + 15 extra creeps (35 creeps in total). He beat it because I told him what to build......

Well..there is no doubt you are very good at this map. It's very rare that I see players defeating wave 30 with just a few extra creeps. Maybe I will introduce a final impossible wave to see who can kill most of them(mostly for experienced players)

Also, peons don't increase the income. It roughly takes over 20-25 waves to get back the gold spent on peon, according to my calculation/estimation; so in general, only peons bought before wave 5 can generate income. I thought this was your intention

My intention is to make it a TD with a original gameplay where you try to defeat your opponents. I had to include income for people to buy more than 1-3 peons. Maybe I should increase the income per lumber a bit? What do you think about that?

My general strategy

Your stategy works well. I like to buy 8-9 peons before the end of wave 11 to get alot of lumber to upgrade opponents creeps.

Most players who try to replicate this video will drop the egg wrong on their first try, I think.

I'm am very close at finishing a new and better way to drop the egg(mostly for new players)

There is another good location that I identified

I'm always looking for new locations so it's great to see builds from other players

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Maybe I should increase the income per lumber a bit? What do you think about that?

I think this is a good idea.
If the income per lumber is changed to 2 gold per 100 lumber, I think the change may be significant enough.

Also, I have one other idea:
1.Besides the creep upgrades, it would be great if players can send some specific creeps of their choice, just like in Legion TD, or even in Hero Line Wars.
2.These creeps cost lumber and only last for 1 wave.
3. During the wave when there are these extra creeps, if one opponent player's egg takes damage, then the income increase from these creeps is doubled; if 2 opponent players' eggs take damage, the income increase is tripled and so on; for example, I send a creep that costs 100 lumber and 2 of my opponent players's eggs take damage during this wave, then my income increase would be as if I spent 300 lumber on this creep.

 

[GamerSmurf]

I think this is a good idea.
If the income per lumber is changed to 2 gold per 100 lumber, I think the change may be significant enough.

Also, I have one other idea:
1.Besides the creep upgrades, it would be great if players can send some specific creeps of their choice, just like in Legion TD, or even in Hero Line Wars.
2.These creeps cost lumber and only last for 1 wave.
3. During the wave when there are these extra creeps, if one opponent player's egg takes damage, then the income increase from these creeps is doubled; if 2 opponent players' eggs take damage, the income increase is tripled and so on; for example, I send a creep that costs 100 lumber and 2 of my opponent players's eggs take damage during this wave, then my income increase would be as if I spent 300 lumber on this creep.

I have doubled the income in the new version and buffet creeps HP from wave 21 to 30.

The other idea can give the game even more variation but it only works well when its team vs team. The creeps should be stronger(per lumber used) than the Reinforcement upgrade as they only spawn for one wave. This will be a problem when its free-for-all. If player 1 and 2 agree to save and send at the same wave then the rest of the players will get alot of creeps while player 1 and 2 will get half of that.

So players can take advantage of the extra sends if they work together and thats not the game design(Should be a whole new mode)

 

[SlumberTurtle]

Dropped the egg at the troll location. This place is pretty bad, but it is still possible to win.

 

[GamerSmurf]

Dropped the egg at the troll location. This place is pretty bad, but it is still possible to win.

Well played and a good combination of towers, location and egg. That's a difficult place to defend