Diablo IV suggestions & comments

[deepstrasz]

My main concern is the game being a Diablo II reboot, mostly in terms of gameplay.

Classes/Characters

We know of the three classes which are basically 3 from Diablo II (+Lord of Destruction): the Sorceress, the Barbarian and the Druid.

• They said the Druid doesn't have fire spells anymore which makes sense although fire is an element of nature as well as wind and whatnot.
• If they decided so, then they should remove any such element manipulation and leave it to the Sorceress.
• They could make the druid more like Warcraft's with healing, buffs, summons, morphs, damage spells coming from minions and metamorphosis as well as nature manipulation like say interacting with the earth, trees, so on. Rain could be something to consider, storms too but not as much or complex(?) as the Sorceress would handle.
• When it comes to transformations, instead of rehashing Diablo II, they could be more creative, turn into a treant/ent (thanks @Augustus for the idea), even a raven/roc, flying temporarily from place to place (from highland/cliffs to lowland).
• Maybe, the instant morph in and out is forced. That should happen with the druid only sketching the transformation as in having some sort of spiritual/astral projection form over the character as a sort of aura and leave actual metamorphoses to abilities and attacks that actually require full attention. The current idea in terms of gameplay might be good but in terms of realism it isn't.

• Another thing they could do is mix classes. Since druids are related to barbarians, they could make it so that you become a barbarian or a druid depending on what choices you make in the skill/ability & talent/trait trees.
• The same could be said about the Sorceress and Wizard. Maybe Wizards are more or less destructive or rely on various other elements the Sorceress may not.
• Similarly with the Demon Hunter and Assassin. Demon Hunters could be the ranged versions and Assassins the melee ones.
• Monks could fuse with Paladins/Crusaders or something, players would become one of those like with the druid-barbarian and the others mentioned above.
• Amazons, well, tough, either integrate something like the Rogue or mix it with the Demon Hunter-Assassin class shift.
• Witch Doctors could be easily melded with Necromancers, each having traits and skills related to their culture.
• New classes are also welcome.

Gameplay

• Since the game will be an open world and morally gray choice based, what about angelic and demonic affiliation? Basically, players could fight for the bad or good side (or neutral/for themselves?), each of these parties giving various bonuses like more damage against demons or undead and/or enabling using of some special attributes on items, spells/skills, talents, rune words.

• I'm really hoping they will keep a sort of Diablo III type ability switch option so that we won't need to start multiple characters on the same class to play with the other spells we didn't choose, except if they decide to make class combinations as mentioned above.

• Drop the cliche and trailer music and put in some experimental orchestral, guitar whatnot music as Diablo has been having. New experimental genres/styles would be welcome.

• More realism in attacks and movement. Suddenly ceasing a long melee weapon attack and immediately turning around running is too much. Diablo II got it better on this than Diablo but Diablo III turned characters into cartoon superheroes.

• Since it's an ARPG, they could make stuff like with the Diablo III beta/alpha Siegebreaker Assault Beast biting hero's heads off (last port of video) if they don't quickly react to set themselves free.

Story

• Judging by the gameplay trailer and art we can see Duriel or (a creature like it?) making an appearance.
• Please don't bring back dead characters. Don't use nostalgia knives and make this more a rehash than an original sequel.
• No empty and persistent threats from enemies, especially main bad characters.
• Properly told story through characters/NPC/villains and not by finding long lost kindergarten diaries.

Spoiler: Duriel

Should be a similar monster, not the actual demon we butchered in Diablo II's Act II ... First picture source: video.
The second image is from Blizzard Press Center - Diablo IV - BlizzCon 2019 Press Kit and the image contains the word Duriel Also the concept art from the same link called Duriel...

Leoric might be back?

Spoiler

Hopefully not. We killed the character two times already. It's getting old, repetitive and lame. Source: link.

• From the intro film (announcement), we can see Rathma (explanation why) and the three people to be sacrificed going to a church which probably is Inarius' Crystal Cathedral. Diablo's manual mentions the cathedral having mirrored glass but I guess that was changed since it also mentions Inarius having a face and eyelids when obviously since Diablo II angels don't even have a face or proper body.
  
• We see that Rathma was hiding in sort of a dead man's body (the character also teleported somehow inside through the blocked gate; which brings the question how did the part thing they were going to get out?). Rathma hypnotizes the Zakarum priest into willingly giving blood (so much for mercy I guess; the priest cared about "Rathma") but the other two party members were forced to bleed, thus why did the ritual work?
• Afterwards we see Lilith basically being reborn and possibly the villain needs time to mature since it looks a bit fleshless (heart being seen through the chest), breastless and covered with blood (and/or as if with amniotic fluid and placenta pieces) as opposed to the concept art.

Spoiler: Lilith

Sources: video and Blizzard Press Center - Diablo IV - BlizzCon 2019 Press Kit

I think the intro needs a bit of work on Rathma's echoed voice. It sounds too, artificial. It doesn't need echoing like that but more of some abyss reverb.

• We also see glimpses of Inarius being chained somewhere, not in the Cathedral, possibly in Hell as the game external material mentions which retcons Diablo I since the character's Cathedral had mirrors. The angel's wings were supposed to be torn off, I guess only partially now?
  
• External material also mentions Lilith being sent to the Void and we see the villain appearing in the/a church, well, actually somewhere under it, appearing out of nowhere going through the blood web.

• Now, first time Lilith is mentioned in a Diablo game is in the third one, its expansions (Reaper of Souls) if I'm not mistaken. If they decide not to consider too much from comic books, books and other external material, they still have to explain Rathma being their son (if it still is that way) and how the nephalem came to be, the trouble with the Worldstone etc.

• On Diablo III's end, what will we find out about the powerful nephalem? Will the character be overwritten by Rathma as the killer of both Diablo and or at least Malthael? Or will it be Mendeln/Kalan or Mehtan (Deadly Roots: The Lore of the Necromancer) or just totally unrelated, maybe the Diablo III nephalem hero standing with the remaining Horadrim and Tyrael?

• They could actually make an interesting conflict between Inarius and Lilith especially in what the nephalem are concerned. Also, let's not forget the Worldstone was destroyed by Tyrael and that the Reaper of Souls hero is a very powerful nephalem. Maybe, there will be a way to choose a Inarius' or Lilith's side or maybe that would only concern the Diablo III nephalem hero since Lilith is supposed to be Diablo IV's main villain/boss. Who knows, maybe the nephalem will gather all humans against both Lilith, Inarius and whatever is left of the Angiris Council and Hell.

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Other story posts on other threads:

Spoiler

1. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony
2. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony
3. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony
4. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony
5. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony
6. Blizzcon 2019 Opening Ceremony

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More suggestions:
@Augustus' post.
@MasterBlaster's post.
@Kerael's post.

 

[Augustus]

Here's a class idea I've had for a while. An Occultist that uses Health as a resource to cast horrific spells and enslave demons. A bit like the Necromancer and the Warlock from WOW but with blood magic and instead of summoning generic demons you can enslave, buff or explode demons in the world. Explode an ice demon? It explodes into bloody ice bolts that freeze enemies.

The only thing that concerns me is that while the art style is definitely on point, the assets don't seem as high quality as Diablo 3's were at the time. Even though Diablo 3's style was not really Diablo, you can't deny the quality of the assets. This game feels like a current gen game from 2016-17 and the game is still at least a couple of years away. I'm worried it will look dated by the time it's out.

 

[deepstrasz]

Here's a class idea I've had for a while. An Occultist that uses Health as a resource to cast horrific spells and enslave demons.

Awesome concept. I guess we could have an opposite too, on the angelic side other than a Paladin/Crusader.

However, the mana(?) should be used as some sort of shield since health is the most important and decisive native resource(?) and will create issues in PvP if Occultists/Warlocks would die more easily than the other classes.

The only thing that concerns me is that while the art style is definitely on point, the assets don't seem as high quality as Diablo 3's were at the time. Even though Diablo 3's style was not really Diablo, you can't deny the quality of the assets. This game feels like a current gen game from 2016-17 and the game is still at least a couple of years away. I'm worried it will look dated by the time it's out.

I don't know about that. The contours seem more softened than in Diablo III, the feels is really good and the colours are not as offensive as in Diablo III. I don't think there are details missing at all from the models. Of course, the engine is in its infant stages or at least early since it's not even an alpha (or between alpha and beta?).

 

[Augustus]

Awesome concept. I guess we could have an opposite too, on the angelic side other than a Paladin/Crusader.

However, the mana(?) should be used as some sort of shield since health is the most important and decisive native resource(?) and will create issues in PvP if Occultists/Warlocks would die more easily than the other classes.


I don't know about that. The contours seem more softened than in Diablo III, the feels is really good and the colours are not as offensive as in Diablo III. I don't think there are details missing at all from the models. Of course, the engine is in its infant stages or at least early since it's not even an alpha (or between alpha and beta?).

That's the point of the class. Very weak and very risky but extremely powerful. A glass cannon.

It's not about the colors. The style is on point and while the game definitely looks good, it feels like the models and textures are not quite Blizzard quality. Look at the guy narrating the gameplay trailer. He's not bad looking but the textures and the animations could be better. By 2021-2022 we will have the next PS and Xbox and I think Diablo 4 should take full advantage of this future hardware.

 

[deepstrasz]

It's not about the colors. The style is on point and while the game definitely looks good, it feels like the models and textures are not quite Blizzard quality. Look at the guy narrating the gameplay trailer. He's not bad looking but the textures and the animations could be better. By 2021-2022 we will have the next PS and Xbox and I think Diablo 4 should take full advantage of this future hardware.

Ah, I think Diablo III also had this "issue". I remember their policy being they want their games to be played by everyone. Look at how StarCraft II evolved from Wings of Liberty to Legacy of the Void. The graphic enhancements are obvious.
But again it's an early version. We'll see later next year how the beta will look, probably.

 

[Augustus]

Yes, I get their policy but it seems it doesn't work quite as well when the game has a more realistic style. Maybe that's why they made D3 cartoony? Perhaps the tech simply wasn't there to make it realistic.

It might also be because of the lighting. It's pretty hard to get interesting lighting when the sky is overcast. There is a screenshot of a snowy inn and I think it looks really awesome.

Have another look at Diablo 4 with these screenshots

 

[deepstrasz]

Yes, I get their policy but it seems it doesn't work quite as well when the game has a more realistic style. Maybe that's why they made D3 cartoony? Perhaps the tech simply wasn't there to make it realistic.

Ah no, I meant, the graphics being tad outdated. The cartoon oriented look of Diablo III was an art direction. Maybe they used parts of the WoW engine or something for less money investment. I don't know.

This looks amazing albeit the image quality is not good:

Spoiler

from video.

 

[MasterBlaster]

They said the Druid doesn't have fire spells anymore which makes sense although fire is an element of nature as well as wind and whatnot.

To be honest - I never liked that D2's Druid had fire abilities, because even if they were differently themed, they were still quite similar to what the Sorceress had. Thus, I for one enjoy that they've swapped fire with earth/wind magic in D4. Yes, fire could work too, but imo what they're doing is better.

what about angelic and demonic affiliation

Wouldn't work. Their whole idea is that Heaven doesn't care - and I absolutely love this, because it creates this feeling that we're on our own and we can't hope that any amount of prayers will bring help from the above, which makes the setting more scary/desperate, which is obviously what they are aiming for.

Thus, if Heaven is not involved in any way, it wouldn't make sense that we can allign with it.

I'm really hoping they will keep a sort of Diablo III type ability switch option so that we won't need to start multiple characters on the same class to play with the other spells we didn't choose, except if they decide to make class combinations as mentioned above.

Obviously a lot can change until D4 is out, but as it stands right now - skill choices are permanent and you can change around talents and gear. At least that's how it worked in the Blizzcon demo.

Personally, I'm against easily accessible respecs. I feel there should be some permanence to your choices, so that they feel more meaningful. That said, I think that having no respecs at all is also pretty bad, because it pidgeon-holes you into finding a good build online and mindlessly sticking to it, so that you don't gimp yourself. This severely limits experimentation. Another thing is, with no respecs if you make a mistake, your character takes a permanent hit. And that feels bad.

My solution to this issue would be to allow respecs, but at an ever increasing cost, so that you could course-correct your build a bit or fix a mistake or try some things while playing, but you wouldn't be able to constantly switch your build whenever you like.

And yes, I feel there should be a clear point where it's just better to make a new character for some other build than grind out respecs on your old one, but with enough breathing room to allow things mentioned above.

Suddenly ceasing a long melee weapon attack and immediately turning around running is too much. Diablo II got it better on this than Diablo but Diablo III turned characters into cartoon superheroes

I strongly disagree. I think that D3's combat felt amazing and to this day it's probably the best feeling aRPG combat ever. Heck, even a lot of people who absolutely hated D3 and went to Path of Exile or other games say this. So... I absolutely love that they want to preserve and/or improve on D3's combat.

And what you're referring to in this quote is basically animation-cancelling - yes, games that don't have it are more realistic, but they also feel a LOT more clunky and unweidly. In some games that are about more tactical, slower combat that is absolutely fine, but it's absolutely the last thing you want in an aRPG, which as a genre is inherently about fast-paced, fluid combat. Like, heck - if you watched some streamers play D4, the one big complain many of them had that there was a slight delay at the end of dash animation and that it didn't feel right. It's just not what aRPG are. I get that you'd prefer a more realistic combat, but implementing it would pretty much change D4's genre.

Please don't bring back dead characters. Don't use nostalgia knives and make this more a rehash than an original sequel.

This one I agree with, though - I'd absolutely love some nostalgia fights, just not as a part of the story. Perhaps some system where once you finish the main story you gain access to some visions or whatever, where you can go fight Duriel or Andariel just for fun.

No empty and persistent threats from enemies, especially main bad characters.

So much this.

If you're going to have a villain, make him shut up. Completely. Diablo throwing cheesy threats made him annoying instead of scary in D3. The same with Azmodan and him basically telling us everything that he'll do. That's just stupid. And my favourite - Belial. The master of deception who just so happened to be the most obvious deceiver I've ever seen. No more of that.

Villains don't have to speak all the time - our imagination, if fueled properly, can make up stuff that's a LOT more scary than any cheesy line.

Leoric might be back?

In one of their panels they've said that it's just some random skeleton lord or whatever, not Leoric. It's just that the art is similar.

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I'll have my own list of suggestions soon

 

[deepstrasz]

To be honest - I never liked that D2's Druid had fire abilities, because even if they were differently themed, they were still quite similar to what the Sorceress had. Thus, I for one enjoy that they've swapped fire with earth/wind magic in D4. Yes, fire could work too, but imo what they're doing is better.

Sure but I can say the same with the storm spells being similar to Wizard or Sorceress' lightning ones. Fire is a hunting element too. I didn't say I'm bothered by this change. It's OK. I just want them to make more logical ones like these so that the classes won't be Diablo II or any Diablo game ripoffs.

Wouldn't work. Their whole idea is that Heaven doesn't care - and I absolutely love this, because it creates this feeling that we're on our own and we can't hope that any amount of prayers will bring help from the above, which makes the setting more scary/desperate, which is obviously what they are aiming for.

It could work either on Lilith or Inarius' side. Was just an idea. It doesn't have to be exactly like how I wrote it though They could not do something like this at all. Just an idea. Anything can work by the way with the proper tuning.

Thus, if Heaven is not involved in any way, it wouldn't make sense that we can allign with it.

It became pretty involved as a matter of fact since Diablo III and RoS.

My solution to this issue would be to allow respecs, but at an ever increasing cost, so that you could course-correct your build a bit or fix a mistake or try some things while playing, but you wouldn't be able to constantly switch your build whenever you like.

Darn, the grind for gem merging in DIII is unbearable. I'd really wouldn't want to waste time farming gold to do such changes.

And what you're referring to in this quote is basically animation-cancelling - yes, games that don't have it are more realistic, but they also feel a LOT more clunky and unweidly. In some games that are about more tactical, slower combat that is absolutely fine, but it's absolutely the last thing you want in an aRPG, which as a genre is inherently about fast-paced, fluid combat.

That's more for AoS games if you ask me. Each with his own.

I'd absolutely love some nostalgia fights, just not as a part of the story.

That's a totally different thing. I just don't want that kind of stuff in the main story. Sure, Caverns of Time type of events would be quite lovely.

And my favourite - Belial. The master of deception who just so happened to be the most obvious deceiver I've ever seen. No more of that.

He couldn't resist. He was histrionic.

I'll have my own list of suggestions soon

Waiting!

 

[MasterBlaster]

Darn, the grind for gem merging in DIII is unbearable. I'd really wouldn't want to waste time farming gold to do such changes.

Isn't Diablo inherently about grinding for something?

And my suggestions will have to wait for tomorrow, because they're a lot of writing and I have some other things to do this evening

 

[deepstrasz]

And my suggestions will have to wait for tomorrow, because they're a lot of writing and I have some other things to do this evening

No problem.

More about why the intro necromancer is Rathma, Lilith takes the character's hand gently and looks tranquil.
Yeah, you might say but why is Rathma kneeling? Well, I guess it's more than a family relationship, the necromancer acknowledges Lilith as a superior.

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@MasterBlaster
Since it's an ARPG, they could make stuff like with the Diablo III beta/alpha Siegebreaker Assault Beast biting hero's heads off (last part of this video) if they don't quickly react to set themselves free.

 

[Dr Super Good]

They said the Druid doesn't have fire spells anymore which makes sense although fire is an element of nature as well as wind and whatnot.

Might be for class diversity. Especially if they push coop it might be required that you vary your party composition to progress at higher difficulties. For example resistant/immune to cold monsters might be a problem for a druid, but throw in a class with fire and things become easier. This was a very positive aspect of Diablo II when playing coop since you wanted your party to have elemental diversity. Without it one ends up with a Diablo III style mess where most damage wins, irrespective of element.

Diablo II limited this by allowing one access to many different elements, but it was also constructed as a single player game with multiplayer being a bonus. By restricting class elemental availability even further than in Diablo III it might encourage cooperative play, which is ok considering the game is online only anyway just like Diablo III.

When it comes to transformations, instead of rehashing Diablo II, they could be more creative, turn into a treant/ent (thanks @Augustus for the idea), even a raven/roc, flying temporarily from place to place (from highland/cliffs to lowland).

There may be more transformations than were shown on the show room floor given how early the game is during development (no concrete release date). So far we have werewolf and werebear at least.

The transformation could also be turned into a purely cosmetic thing, with players able to select from a variety of animals (even cow as an easter egg) with all of them mechanically functioning the same. This would solve the problem of too much choice that having 3 or more transformations may bring and make balancing easier. I am sure many people would prefer this due to their personal preferences with animals.

Another thing they could do is mix classes. Since druids are related to barbarians, they could make it so that you become a barbarian or a druid depending on what choices you make in the skill/ability & talent/trait trees.

This limits art diversity, especially with character designs. Looking at the gameplay footage they want to keep that Diablo II and III style unique character designs. If druid and barbarian were devised from the same base class then they would share the same character model which limits diversity. This is also healthy for gameplay as it allows one to easily tell a druid apart from a barbarian as their body shape and features are substantially different.

The same could be said about the Sorceress and Wizard. Maybe Wizards are more or less destructive or rely on various other elements the Sorceress may not.

There are lore implications. The Sorceress was not a generic mage, she came from a female magic orientated background, similar in ways to the origins of the Amazon/Cassia.

Monks could fuse with Paladins/Crusaders or something, players would become one of those like with the druid-barbarian and the others mentioned above.

Paladins and Crusaders yes, but not Monks as again there are major lore reasons that prevent this. Monks were followers of a completely different religion.

Witch Doctors could be easily melded with Necromancers, each having traits and skills related to their culture.

Would be better to keep them as separate classes. As is Necromancer has enough variety potential.

Since the game will be an open world and morally gray choice based, what about angelic and demonic affiliation? Basically, players could fight for the bad or good side (or neutral/for themselves?), each of these parties giving various bonuses like more damage against demons or undead and/or enabling using of some special attributes on items, spells/skills, talents, rune words.

It is too early to guess what the story is. One of the bosses shown appeared to be Durial, Lord of Pain, so one can assume all Evils have been reborn. This likely means we will encounter Baal, Mephisto and Diablo once again with Diablo being pretty much expected from a Diablo game. However this does not explain how Lilith ties in with the story.

Siding with demons in the form of evils is not lore wise possible since they are inherently evil. This would basically turn your hero into a villain and sanctuary would be turned into part of hell. On the other hand siding with Lilith or the Horodrim could be a lore wise viable choice, since both should want the destruction of the Evils. This could even have PvP aspects associated with it.

I'm really hoping they will keep a sort of Diablo III type ability switch option so that we won't need to start multiple characters on the same class to play with the other spells we didn't choose, except if they decide to make class combinations as mentioned above.

Will likely have Diablo II style respec system where for a cost (gold?) you can reset your choices. It might also be that the game is designed such that you can eventually max/unlock everything which would be a more natural solution and solve many of the game health issues that skill trees suffer from.

More realism in attacks and movement. Suddenly ceasing a long melee weapon attack and immediately turning around running is too much. Diablo II got it better on this than Diablo but Diablo III turned characters into cartoon superheroes.

Diablo III originally did have delays and such to prevent this. However it caused the same gameplay health problems that Diablo II suffered from due to them. Specifically so that blocking or evasion looked realistic you were locked in place to play the animation. This meant that during an intense fight you were effectively soft locked in combat until someone freed you or you died because your character was repeatedly playing the animations preventing you from doing anything. This is why Diablo III removed it with one of the patches, since it allows gameplay to remain much more responsive and less frustrating.

The best example of this nonsense was playing the Amazon in Diablo II and taking the various evasion techniques. These had stupidly long animations and were prone to desyncing your client from the server. With them skilled high enough and playing an impale based build it was possible that mobs of enemies could repeatedly trigger your evasion animation to the point you were unable to attack back, run, move or do anything but use potions or die. Another example was the Tomb Vipers around Nithalak in Hell difficulty when playing as a Hammerdin, the poison spear would trigger your 1-2 frame block animation so much that you could not do anything and the game made a loud grating sound, with you either surviving until the effect wore off or more often than not having to respawn.

Since it's an ARPG, they could make stuff like with the Diablo III beta/alpha Siegebreaker Assault Beast biting hero's heads off (last port of video) if they don't quickly react to set themselves free.

Quick time events are not fun and probably not appropriate to Diablo. Additionally once the player learns them they become trivial (might as well auto pass) unless they are randomly generated button presses in which case slower people may never be able to pass them, such as myself, which makes the game very unfun for such people.

That said having such animations play if the move kills your hero would be cool. For example if you fail to pass the health check when the siege breaker grabs you, it bites your head off rather than throwing you down. Mechanically this makes no difference since you would have died anyway but visually it would be a cool detail.

Please don't bring back dead characters. Don't use nostalgia knives and make this more a rehash than an original sequel.

This is Diablo... A lot of characters physically cannot die permanently. The Evils have been slain many times and they just keep coming back. I suspect Angels do the same. As such I expect to see lots of Evils and even Malthael make a reappearance.

I agree that Cain should probably be left be. Maybe have him appear as a ghost during the plot but nothing more.

No empty and persistent threats from enemies, especially main bad characters.

Except that is Azmodan's signature move! Even HotS makes fun of it so at this point I would be disappointed if we fight Azmodan and he does not do that.

One could also make the threats less empty seeing how the world is more open and persistent.

Properly told story through characters/NPC/villains and not by finding long lost kindergarten diaries.

Diablo III actually did this very well. The only issue was that people never bothered to play Campaign mode after adventure mode was added.

All the diaries and such were just extra background lore, unrelated directly with the main plot and often reiterating the previous game plots or flavour text.

Should be a similar monster, not the actual demon we butchered in Diablo II's Act II ... First picture source: video.
The second image is from Blizzard Press Center - Diablo IV - BlizzCon 2019 Press Kit and the image contains the word Duriel Also the concept art from the same link called Duriel...

Nice that he has resurrected. It is at least consistent with the end of Diablo III where all evils were set free. Hope we see Mephisto and Baal again.

Now, first time Lilith is mentioned in a Diablo game is in the third one, its expansions (Reaper of Souls) if I'm not mistaken. If they decide not to consider too much from comic books, books and other external material, they still have to explain Rathma being their son (if it still is that way) and how the nephalem came to be, the trouble with the Worldstone etc.

Lilith was mentioned in Diablo II. She was even a non-cannon bonus boss during the Ubers however this was nothing more than a reskinned Andarial. Back then Lilith was the daughter of Andariel and I think even Mephisto. However her lore was revised since then so she is now just the daughter of Mephisto and is also an ancestor of all humans in Diablo.

http://classic.battle.net/diablo2exp/monsters/act5-lilith.shtml

Diablo III explained her modern lore. Both angels and demons grew tired of fighting each other and so they stole the world stone and created sanctuary. There some of them fell in love with each other and somehow had children. These children were nephalem, with power unmatched by heaven and hell. Lilith thought to use the nephalem as an army to destroy heaven and hell, a plan the angels did not agree on and so a civil war started. At the end Lilith was defeated and the world stone was repurposed to seal away the nephalem powers, rendering them weak mortal humans.

Based on Diablo III lore it is completely possible the heroes of Diablo IV are nephalem.

They could actually make an interesting conflict between Inarius and Lilith especially in what the nephalem are concerned. Also, let's not forget the Worldstone was destroyed by Tyrael and that the Reaper of Souls hero is a very powerful nephalem. Maybe, there will be a way to choose a Inarius' or Lilith's side or maybe that would only concern the Diablo III nephalem hero since Lilith is supposed to be Diablo IV's main villain/boss. Who knows, maybe the nephalem will gather all humans against both Lilith, Inarius and whatever is left of the Angiris Council and Hell.

It is likely that a time skip has occurred. As such the nephalem from Diablo III may be old frail people, much like how the Diablo II heroes were during Diablo III. Many may even be dead. Tyrael may even be an old man now.

 

[deepstrasz]

Might be for class diversity. Especially if they push coop it might be required that you vary your party composition to progress at higher difficulties. For example resistant/immune to cold monsters might be a problem for a druid, but throw in a class with fire and things become easier. This was a very positive aspect of Diablo II when playing coop since you wanted your party to have elemental diversity. Without it one ends up with a Diablo III style mess where most damage wins, irrespective of element.

Well, of course but what if you play solo?

The transformation could also be turned into a purely cosmetic thing, with players able to select from a variety of animals (even cow as an easter egg) with all of them mechanically functioning the same. This would solve the problem of too much choice that having 3 or more transformations may bring and make balancing easier. I am sure many people would prefer this due to their personal preferences with animals.

Ah but no. I want it lore friendly. Cosmetics is a totally different thing. A cow with the bear's or wolf's abilities or from both is more than awkward.

There are lore implications. The Sorceress was not a generic mage, she came from a female magic orientated background, similar in ways to the origins of the Amazon/Cassia.

It's not my fault they created a doppelganger in Diablo III. They could for instance make you decide where to learn wizardry from.
About the current barbarian and druid look. They are similarly big and mostly the spells and gear differentiate them.
The point is not to copy-paste the classes from Diablo II-III.

It is too early to guess what the story is. One of the bosses shown appeared to be Durial, Lord of Pain, so one can assume all Evils have been reborn. This likely means we will encounter Baal, Mephisto and Diablo once again with Diablo being pretty much expected from a Diablo game

It's what I'm afraid of. No biggie, I don't preorder games.

Siding with demons in the form of evils is not lore wise possible since they are inherently evil. This would basically turn your hero into a villain and sanctuary would be turned into part of hell. On the other hand siding with Lilith or the Horodrim could be a lore wise viable choice, since both should want the destruction of the Evils.

Well, maybe some players like to see the world burn

This meant that during an intense fight you were effectively soft locked in combat until someone freed you or you died because your character was repeatedly playing the animations preventing you from doing anything

That is a design fault. Either make it so that you can block while moving or not block at all when moving.

Another example was the Tomb Vipers around Nithalak in Hell difficulty when playing as a Hammerdin, the poison spear would trigger your 1-2 frame block animation so much that you could not do anything and the game made a loud grating sound, with you either surviving until the effect wore off or more often than not having to respawn.

Again, it doesn't have to be the same. Just more towards realism, not buggy.

Quick time events are not fun and probably not appropriate to Diablo. Additionally once the player learns them they become trivial (might as well auto pass) unless they are randomly generated button presses in which case slower people may never be able to pass them, such as myself, which makes the game very unfun for such people.

I mean casting a higher damage spell or hitting the the enemy. If you don't do anything at all, you die or lose lots of health. Just an idea.
I don't buy the reaction time thing. Diablo is a fast paced game since Diablo III. Reaction is pretty much mandatory. An example are the frozen bombs DIII elites create which require you to move fast or be frozen for seconds. Similarly, the laser balls they cast which rotate their beams.

This is Diablo... A lot of characters physically cannot die permanently. The Evils have been slain many times and they just keep coming back. I suspect Angels do the same. As such I expect to see lots of Evils and even Malthael make a reappearance.

This is uncreative. None of the first Diablo bosses reappeared in Diablo II except for Diablo which made sense. Similarly, none of the evils were resurrected in LoD by Baal.

I agree that Cain should probably be left be. Maybe have him appear as a ghost during the plot but nothing more.

Oh boy, StarCraft II "Tassadar"? I don't know about you but I don't like sloppy nostalgia based writing. But then again, there are so many other better games out there if that will be the case.

Except that is Azmodan's signature move! Even HotS makes fun of it so at this point I would be disappointed if we fight Azmodan and he does not do that.

Read the first Diablo manual. Azmodan wasn't an idiot.

Diablo III actually did this very well. The only issue was that people never bothered to play Campaign mode after adventure mode was added.

Diablo II did it better. Diablo III is filled with breaking the fourth wall jokes and stuff. Also, Diablo III introduced those lame diaries. Every characters wrote something and lost the writings around Sanctuary.

All the diaries and such were just extra background lore, unrelated directly with the main plot and often reiterating the previous game plots or flavour text.

They could have made a library in Caldeum where players could read Abd al-Hazir's writings. But they created the lost diaries for the achievements.
Also, RoS' Inarius and Lilith diaries basically were hinting at what Diablo IV would be about if that's what they decided then and not afterward.

Nice that he has resurrected. It is at least consistent with the end of Diablo III where all evils were set free. Hope we see Mephisto and Baal again.

Which totally kills soulstones and Diablo II. Not to mention the transition between DII and DIII. It screams unimaginable retcon.

Lilith was mentioned in Diablo II.

Wow, I didn't know about that link. Wonder when they wrote it. It's not in the game manual. But it doesn't say anything about Mephisto and Lilith. Also, these post normal difficulty monsters are basically not the main story. These explanations are there as bonus. I mean, how can you say it's a continuity when every difficulty is as if the world starts over?
The only thing Diablo II directly mentions is Inarius on the manual world map:

Spoiler

Which is not mentioned on the DIII map:

Spoiler

Diablo III explained her modern lore.

*retconned lore. However, it's first the fault of the books before Diablo III, the Sin War trilogy. Of course, if we don't consider a filler Diablo II Pandemonium event boss, it's not a total retcon but more of an addition.

Not all the Über boss versions have an unique story. Most of them have the normal boss lore.

Both angels and demons grew tired of fighting each other and so they stole the world stone and created sanctuary. There some of them fell in love with each other and somehow had children. These children were nephalem, with power unmatched by heaven and hell. Lilith thought to use the nephalem as an army to destroy heaven and hell, a plan the angels did not agree on and so a civil war started. At the end Lilith was defeated and the world stone was repurposed to seal away the nephalem powers, rendering them weak mortal humans.

It was Lilith and Inarius actually, not more. They stole what became the Worldstone. The children were theirs. The rest were followers. At least it's what external material says.

Based on Diablo III lore it is completely possible the heroes of Diablo IV are nephalem.

I guess since the Worldstone was destroyed nephalem will appear more and more. I think the heroes of the first Diablo games were also nephalem as their powers surpassed that of the prime evils. No mere human has such powers even with training, I guess.

It is likely that a time skip has occurred. As such the nephalem from Diablo III may be old frail people, much like how the Diablo II heroes were during Diablo III. Many may even be dead. Tyrael may even be an old man now.

Then why was Tyrael so worried at the end of RoS if anything that could have happened afterwards would be only temporary?

 

[Feng Shui]

My main concern is the game being a Diablo II reboot, mostly in terms of gameplay.

Guess in one way it all comes down to whether or not Maleficent will have voluptuous ta tas.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Well, of course but what if you play solo?

Maybe you cannot? Because the open world will have influences from other players?

A cow with the bear's or wolf's abilities or from both is more than awkward.

Does not stop them wielding large weaponry apparently...

The point is not to copy-paste the classes from Diablo II-III.

The point is to copy and paste them, since that is what people expect? We had a Barbarian in 2 and 3 and so we want one in 4.

If all classes should be included is another question. For example maybe Paladin is included instead of Crusader.

Well, maybe some players like to see the world burn

From what I can see Diablo was never created around this. This is not some sort of Undertale where you decide if you are good or evil. Yes you can be a trolly PKer but ultimately you were meant to have killed Baal and helped Tyrael.

That is a design fault. Either make it so that you can block while moving or not block at all when moving.

It did not apply to block, it applied to everything. And being an action RPG you are expected to be moving a lot of the time. If anything reducing the number of skills which force you to be stationary to use would help game flow a lot. There is a reason Whirlwind Barb is so good in Diablo III.

Again, it doesn't have to be the same. Just more towards realism, not buggy.

Except realism in such situation would entitle your character huddling to the ground under their shield looking like their shield is being hit by a 300 km/h hurricane. Then after that waiting 15+ seconds to recover from the experience.

People play games because they are not reality. They want to be a super hero.

I mean casting a higher damage spell or hitting the the enemy. If you don't do anything at all, you die or lose lots of health. Just an idea.

And how would this be animated? Especially seeing how you are arguing about realistic animation so much, if anything this would be the complete opposite? How could the hero use a powerful skill if they are being held tight in the arms of a monster/demon preventing their arms from moving?

Especially considering there will likely be a Hardcore mode, having any kind of instant death is best avoided.

I don't buy the reaction time thing. Diablo is a fast paced game since Diablo III. Reaction is pretty much mandatory. An example are the frozen bombs DIII elites create which require you to move fast or be frozen for seconds. Similarly, the laser balls they cast which rotate their beams.

You need to avoid them in Diablo III?! One's 4 billion toughness and unstoppable usually is enough to tank right through them...

They also are well choreographed and very slow. Most of their challenge is from the zoning they apply which forces one to move if one lacks the ability to out right tank them.

Instant cast instant death skills with a challenge to pass would also serve no purpose if they are made too easy to pass. Since every one will always be passing them then one might as well make them auto pass in which case one can save on the assets for instant death animation anyway. This is likely why the concept was removed in Diablo III.

In theory Diablo III did have an instant death ability at release. Azmodan's Globe would gain damage the longer it travelled and in Inferno mode unless you face tanked it at melee range the instant it was cast it would quickly deal more damage than your character could possibly survive. The globe also homed in so the only way to survive it past that point was to out run it until it timed out (during which time you could not attack) or to use abilities to prevent the damage killing you (limited by cooldowns, eats your skill slots). Needless to say this was removed when Azmodan was overhauled for RoS, since you often spent 2/3 or more of the fight running around not attacking him, especially when playing solo.

This is uncreative. None of the first Diablo bosses reappeared in Diablo II except for Diablo which made sense. Similarly, none of the evils were resurrected in LoD by Baal.

Only if one ignores the lore completely. Both Mephisto and Baal were meant to have been resurrected as well in Diablo II as their bodies were killed prior to the events in Diablo I by Tal Rasha.

Baal did not get a chance to work to resurrect the other evils in Diablo II LoD because he was still executing the plan Mephisto made.

Nothing is creative anymore so that argument does not stand. In fact one could say it is more creative resurrecting them as repeating characters given how World of Warcraft has milked the killing of characters to death already for a decade.

Azmodan wasn't an idiot.

Neither was he an idiot in Diablo III. Being the second to final act in Diablo III (before RoS) all monsters were level 63, the same as the final act. Clearing the act in Inferno was extremely difficult. His gloating was well deserved given how if one of the many run up to him bosses did not brick wall you by their enrage timers, he would. Of course if you dual wielded credit cards this was not an issue and he may have seemed easy, but for average joe playing the game using only what they found and the gold auction house getting past Act III while not feeling you were carried by someone else was a real achievement, especially in Hardcore.

He was just made to seem like an idiot when the main hero was buffed considerably in the run up to RoS. Being able to one shot everything, including him, kind of makes the gloating stupid.

Diablo III is filled with breaking the fourth wall jokes and stuff.

It is? I do not recall any...

Diablo III introduced those lame diaries

Which have nothing to do with the direct plot of Diablo III. Instead they either repeat the plot of previous Diablo games, for those who never played them, or fill in the missing lore details which the game manual used to.

Also, RoS' Inarius and Lilith diaries basically were hinting at what Diablo IV would be about if that's what they decided then and not afterward.

Actually they were there to explain why Malthael went mad. This sort of background lore used to be in the game manual, but games do not have proper game manuals anymore.

The reason for Malthael going mad has nothing to do with the plot of Diablo III. Similar to how Azmodan and the other evils banishing the prime evils to sanctuary had nothing to do with the plot of Diablo II. Hence why both of these were provided as background information in the manual (Diablo II) or diaries (Diablo III).

Which totally kills soulstones and Diablo II. Not to mention the transition between DII and DIII. It screams unimaginable retcon.

Such retcon was required to make Diablo III to begin with... Naming a game Diablo and not having Diablo as a boss kind of defeats the purpose of the franchise.

In Diablo II you were meant to have smashed Diablo's soul stone in the interlude between Act 4 and Act 5.

Wow, I didn't know about that link. Wonder when they wrote it. It's not in the game manual. But it doesn't say anything about Mephisto and Lilith. Also, these post normal difficulty monsters are basically not the main story. These explanations are there as bonus. I mean, how can you say it's a continuity when every difficulty is as if the world starts over?

It was written when the pandemonium event was added to ladder, which was a year or so after release of LoD. The event was only available on Hell difficulty, hence no Normal or Nightmare mode equivalent. As Diablo II was the end of the Diablo franchise at the time, the event was technically lore back then. It was retconned for Diablo III when they decided to think, plan and expand lore more carefully.

I guess since the Worldstone was destroyed nephalem will appear more and more. I think the heroes of the first Diablo games were also nephalem as their powers surpassed that of the prime evils. No mere human has such powers even with training, I guess.

Diablo I it was meant to be that the heroes were all beings of great power who inevitably fell to Diablo. In Diablo II the warrior became Diablo, the Sorcerer because the Summoner and the Rouge became a miniboss of Act 1.

The Diablo II heroes were also meant to have great power but not be Nephalim. The Sorcerer became the teacher/friend of the Wizard, the Necromancer raised an apprentice, the Barbarian was an ancestor of the Barbarian. There were probably a few more but these might not have made it into Diablo III, since much content ended up being cut.

Then why was Tyrael so worried at the end of RoS if anything that could have happened afterwards would be only temporary?

Planned third expansion that never happened? Who knows...

 

[deepstrasz]

Guess in one way it all comes down to whether or not Maleficent will have voluptuous ta tas.

I don't get the spam joke. Are you referring to the flat chest in the intro. Would that make it not a reiteration?

Maybe you cannot? Because the open world will have influences from other players?

They've said you can play this game solo and it's only optional to have a party for world events or go PvP.

Does not stop them wielding large weaponry apparently...

The Cow stuff is only as a joke, Easter egg, not to be take seriously...

The point is to copy and paste them, since that is what people expect? We had a Barbarian in 2 and 3 and so we want one in 4.

The Barbarian of DIII is not an exact copy of the one in DII. That's what I'm trying to explain they should do with mixing classes.

If all classes should be included is another question. For example maybe Paladin is included instead of Crusader.

Lorewise, Paladins became bad or at least obsolete since the reformed Crusader movement is now the good one following the Light properly.

From what I can see Diablo was never created around this.

Why be so restrictive? Note, this is supposed to be a new Diablo game.

Except realism in such situation would entitle your character huddling to the ground under their shield looking like their shield is being hit by a 300 km/h hurricane. Then after that waiting 15+ seconds to recover from the experience.

It's obviously a game. I don't expect a reality simulation, just to have logic of realism as much as possible.
People who want to be a fictional superhero they'll never be in reality should play superhero related games or WoW, whatever. Diablo was never about being a superhero in the comic book sense.

. There is a reason Whirlwind Barb is so good in Diablo III.

Exactly. The character could run while blocking certain attacks while other would hit and easily slow them down, not stop them because it would obviously create an annoying gameplay mechanic. Again, if they want to, they can combine realism with fast paced action.

And how would this be animated? Especially seeing how you are arguing about realistic animation so much, if anything this would be the complete opposite? How could the hero use a powerful skill if they are being held tight in the arms of a monster/demon preventing their arms from moving?

Maybe while using the attack button or spell numbers, the animation would show the character twitching and suddenly breaking loose? They can think of something. Using spells would break the character free faster while using normal attacks would take more time.

Especially considering there will likely be a Hardcore mode, having any kind of instant death is best avoided.

Yeah, that's a valid point however, Nihlathak in DII and not only could kill your character with one spell (corpse explosion). Similarly in Diablo III the lasers and frozen stars could kill you in a matter of seconds.

You need to avoid them in Diablo III?! One's 4 billion toughness and unstoppable usually is enough to tank right through them...

In DIII it's important to have damage. Classes like the wizard will be fragile. Barbarians and Crusaders are the most resistant but if players don't find proper gear or invest in damage bonuses instead of armour/defense and life, they will have issues on higher difficulties where it will take minutes-hours to kill bosses.

They also are well choreographed and very slow. Most of their challenge is from the zoning they apply which forces one to move if one lacks the ability to out right tank them.

The same could be said about the Siegebreaker Assault Beast beta/alpha ability. It could be made to have proper latency.
Also, DIII jailer spells instantly catch you. There's no "choreography" in that.

Instant cast instant death skills with a challenge to pass would also serve no purpose if they are made too easy to pass. Since every one will always be passing them then one might as well make them auto pass in which case one can save on the assets for instant death animation anyway. This is likely why the concept was removed in Diablo III.

It's just a more animated way of seeing things. It can be the equated to the DIII elite boss spells mentioned before.

In theory Diablo III did have an instant death ability at release. Azmodan's Globe would gain damage the longer it travelled and in Inferno mode unless you face tanked it at melee range the instant it was cast it would quickly deal more damage than your character could possibly survive. The globe also homed in so the only way to survive it past that point was to out run it until it timed out (during which time you could not attack) or to use abilities to prevent the damage killing you (limited by cooldowns, eats your skill slots). Needless to say this was removed when Azmodan was overhauled for RoS, since you often spent 2/3 or more of the fight running around not attacking him, especially when playing solo.

They should have made Azmodan cast that rarely.

Only if one ignores the lore completely. Both Mephisto and Baal were meant to have been resurrected as well in Diablo II as their bodies were killed prior to the events in Diablo I by Tal Rasha.

Not by Tal Rasha alone but by the Horadrim. Tal Rasha was an initiate who volunteered and suggested that demons might be contained by strong willed people by connecting their body directly to the a soulstone.
You are right. However, the demons should not reappear the same way as their hosts will always be different. Diablo III was spot on that with Diablo's look.
Also, we don't exactly know what happened with Mephisto's soulstone. Diablo II made it pretty clear that by using Hephasto's Hell Forge Hammer on the stone in the Hellforge would stop Mephisto from manifesting again. Similarly we can understand that both Diablo and Baal got the same treatment. Not too sure about Baal though since Tyrael immediately came, destroyed the Worldstone and the world ended.
If, these stones would have done their job, there would have been no need for the Aiden+Adria retcon. It's how Diablo reappeared, basically, but only partially, logically.
Also, DII did not say anything about soulstones pertaining the lesser evils but since we don't see them in DIII, it's safe to assume they were pretty dead.
It's true that Tyrael says that Diablo had been released even if Malthael consumed the demonic energy. Hopefully, it remains just said.

Nothing is creative anymore so that argument does not stand. In fact one could say it is more creative resurrecting them as repeating characters given how World of Warcraft has milked the killing of characters to death already for a decade.

It's the same thing. But I care about Diablo though and hope to still do.

He was just made to seem like an idiot when the main hero was buffed considerably in the run up to RoS. Being able to one shot everything, including him, kind of makes the gloating stupid.

I'm talking about the gameplay. In terms of story, Azmodan is an idiot in Diablo III telling you everything that will follow and eventually how to get to Hell and kill the demon.

It is? I do not recall any...

Not in the literal sense but many jokes are too contemporary or out of theme that they break immersion. It's like those Warcraft III quotes but that's different since Warcraft has such stuff since Warcraft II.

Actually they were there to explain why Malthael went mad. This sort of background lore used to be in the game manual, but games do not have proper game manuals anymore.

The ones about Malthael, yes. Too bad they don't make those manuals anymore. It's always a pleasure to read the stories and imagine things yourself, draw conclusions etc. Plus, it doesn't break immersion since you don't fight and hear about some demon bee and who found it.

The reason for Malthael going mad has nothing to do with the plot of Diablo III. Similar to how Azmodan and the other evils banishing the prime evils to sanctuary had nothing to do with the plot of Diablo II. Hence why both of these were provided as background information in the manual (Diablo II) or diaries (Diablo III).

The problem is Malthael's diaries appeared in RoS where it directly links the character to the story. Azmodan was only mentioned in the first Diablo manual before making an appearance in Diablo III.

Such retcon was required to make Diablo III to begin with... Naming a game Diablo and not having Diablo as a boss kind of defeats the purpose of the franchise.

They could have made it so that Diablo's soulstone could not be broken or something, anything less cheesier. But the black soulstone and the Adria retcon are just horrible.
And again, already mentioned, the expansions of Diablo games don't have Diablo (well, except for RoS, indirectly).

It was retconned for Diablo III when they decided to think, plan and expand lore more carefully.

That's funny. Careful planning is an undeserved compliment for Diablo III.

The Sorcerer became the teacher/friend of the Wizard

Where is that mentioned?

 

[MasterBlaster]

So, my suggestions (were supposed to be a lot longer, but I got tied up answering to other threads ):

1. I think that Sorceress, Druid and Barbarian are enough for returning classes - I'd prefer the remaining two to be something new.
2. I've heard that the max level for D4 is going to be 40 - I think that's a bit too low.
3. Talent trees - the idea is nice, but personally I feel that the tree is a bit too small.
4. Runewords - I really like the concept of conditionals and effects, but I think we should be able to make combinations of say conditional + 2 effects, etc.
5. I'm not a fan of the environment shown in the Blizzcon demo - it look a little too gray-ish. I'd like there to be more colors, maybe some red-ish rocks or something.
6. As much as I love cutscenes, I really hope that there's an option to permanently disable them, because you know that after a few times they will become annoying.

 

[Kerael]

Now this is a topic of some bandwidth.

I think we should let the Team 3 know about what we're up to around some time.

I Gameplay/Mechanics

• Instant Kill abilities
  
  When I saw them in the gameplay trailer, I was just stunned how darkly true they were executed (2:06). With the music suddenly changing from thrill to agony, it seemed so aligned with what Diablo is about.
  However, the insta-kill mechanics are a very sensitive topic, not so say, frustrating at times. I think that they can be designed in a sensible manner.
  

  • First, they need to be telegraphed properly: long swings with possible aoe indicators.
  • Second, their sheer damage really doesn't have to collapse you to 0 every time. I think that the Defense stat should play a role in that, preventing the death past level ~20 (out of proposed max level of 40).
  • And third, abilities, involving being stunned (held by a Siegebreaker Beast) should be interrupted by the other party members. I think this interaction would be great for the World Bosses, hinting at the fact that they aren't really supposed to be defeated solo.
• Time To Die
  
  While we're at it, I'd like to point out that the Damage/Toughness ratio in Diablo III is just bad and frustrating. Unless you go for a Barbarian/Crusader, you're left much more anxious to engage the demon hordes since they can pretty much one-shot you if they have certain affixes. I've gathered quite a graveyard of Demon Hunters mostly because of momentary lags.
  Diablo II handled this balance much better. You could die either way, but the Health Globe didn't behave as an [on/off] LED.​
  
  
• Block/Evade/Attack animations
  
  I've experienced these stutters back in Diablo II, but with their lack of in Diablo III, the gameflow feels somewhat flat and detached from reality. When nearly all the actions had a certain time-cost, it was much much more immersive than what we have now. For Diablo IV, I'd like this design to make a return, in a smoother fashion, that is.
  

  • Let's say Shield Blocks do interrupt you for 0.1 sec, but Shields only block in a frontal arc of 120-180 degrees. Already you are thinking about your positioning in combat. At low hp, would you count on the Block Chance or would you take a backstab?
  • Weapon Swap for Barbarians should also have a 0.2 sec "busy" animation. You can move but not perform attacks. This will prevent the Barbarians' increased item-limit from being an outright imba and will also include some thinking process regarding the execution of your combos. Maybe you can whip out your two-handers to finish stunned enemies, but doing so in the heat of things would most likely get you stunned instead.
  • Only a small subset of abilities can cancel these 'animations'. Namely, the escape/mobility skills along with the newly added Dash should be able to interrupt attack backswings, on-block staggers, etc.
  • I think we can all agree that Evasion shouldn't have such animation.
• Item Durability
  
  Generally, the most boring topic in all of the Diablo franchise. But I feel like, it can be made grounded instead.
  While watching Rhykker's interview with David Kim, I gave some thought to this concept, as well as how it has changed in Diablo through time. David's example (1:40:44) of "having a cool bonus above a certain durability level" is what sparked the most in me regarding this mechanic.
  

  • I'd like to suggest this approach to be more general, rather than specific. Not excluding the cool boni from the Legendaries, of course. So let's say the Damage/Defense from the items scales with durability: 100% value at 100% down to 90% durability → 50% value at 0% durability (and you can't use the item at 0). And let's say an item lasts for 40-60 minutes on average. This will make the players more conscious of the gear they're using, which is only right, in my opinion, since the gear-slot number is reduced to just 5 armor + 2/4 weapons.
  • Ethereal items then, should they be added, could 'make more of their durability', having their value scaling shifted up: 125% → 75%. Also, they'd last about 1.5-2 times longer.
  • Some enemy abilities can reduce durability. For example, Duriel's impaling attack would reduce durability of Shields and Armor, while some Shielding ability would blunt the Weapons it is attacked with. However that may have severe PvP implications, should it be applied to player's abilities.

II Storytelling

• Scattered Diaries
  
  I liked listening to the audio-notes while playing. Be it a lore-piece, or a monster's description. But it indeed may turn ugly when the whole plot relies on these pieces being noticed and willingly interacted with. This concept is more suited for the display of extra-lore: something that isn't particularly required for the main theme, but is a welcome piece of trivia instead.
  @deepstrasz, great idea with a library, by the way.​
  
  
• Empty Threats
  
  The issue with those is self-evident. It's more of a villain becoming the narrator for a part of an Act, than a real message being delivered. And while it may seem rather touching to be addressed by the a boss, it is (was in Diablo III) in essence just a 'you can't stop me' lie. For Diablo IV I wish these interactions to be more like 'Meanwhile, I burned your main village to ash. How do you like it, nephalem?'. Just some real lines about real actions with consequences, not an hour-long invitation to kill them.​
  
  
• Landscape-driven Narrative
  
  "...It always starts with a journey to a distant land. There I find a city in flames. Streets choked with corpses. Unthinkable destruction. I witness senseless slaughter. Brother against brother. Pure hatred.
  And then, executions. Agony. Suffering surrounded me. Until, my turn comes... They cut my ear. Loot my gold.
  I Alt+F4 in terror. There's noone left to stand against them..."
  
  Isn't it what we all have already experienced in Diablo II? The gory surroundings had shaped this experience as a whole, framing it in a very particular way. I say it's about time this aspect is upgraded from being a static surrounding asset to becoming an interactable object.
  

  • We enter The Pit Level 2, but there is no treasure chest to be found. Why? "It's a gate" - a voice replied. Instead, we see a set of blood-stained altars. Once clicked, they drain user's HP until the action is finished (let's say 20% hp over 4 seconds; non-combat; can kill if used at low hp? why not, would activate nevertheless). And once all the altars are attended to, a Boss is summoned. Something like Cursed Shrines, but with a flavor. Looking red is not enough.
  • Repeating the plot of the trailer? Sure, but it doesn't have to be a literal copy, this is just an example, after all. The trailer has established a strong theme and in-game this theme should be followed just as strongly. Otherwise we very well could end up with Diablo III all over again. Distinct and brutal features are what makes the Sanctuary feel so real.

III Lore

• Reviving Dead Characters. Diablo past Diablo?
  
  While recycling material sure does taste great, I think that some of it have to be let go already, only referencing it at most. And while introducing new believable characters is way harder than killing the old ones. The way they kill them is not particularly believable, either.
  On the other hand, there are more opportunities to explore, once a character's death is embraced and accepted.
  

  • I'm sure Cain's Grave would be a meaningful place to visit. I even suppose that it is already visited in the cutscene bit of the gameplay trailer.
  • As for Duriel, technically he can be revived, since he's something like an uber-creature, not a Prime Evil or the like. So we can expect that the Creator of Sanctuary, or even some of the higher-up Necromancers, would be capable of reviving the beast. However I would prefer that instead, Duriel's offspring would haunt the players nemesis-style while in caves and dungeons, blocking the exits for the duration of the fight.
  • Diablo... he is so old and tired already. Even his skull in the trailer looks especially elderly. @Dr Super Good Can there be a Diablo game without Diablo himself, being alive? Very much yes, as long as it is vivid, that the world is being built on his corpse. After all, it's not like his spirit will leave the Sanctuary anytime soon. He had entailed consequences and he will be referenced more than he needs too. No need in Diablo fight all over again. Except maybe a Shadow of Diablo as a blunt plug.
• Being Evil
  
  The game is said to have non-linear campaign. That may very well include options of being malevolent. Who knows, to what extent the Angels don't care. Apart from the obvious looting part, all we do in-game is being a noble hero, while some of the cinematics suggest otherwise (Diablo I end-game cinematic; shoving a Soulstone inside one's own skull). This results in a certain disunion of intent. And I hope it will be reduced by including in-game options such as:
  

  • Looting a trader-NPC's wheelbarrow vs being able to trade with them.
  • Taking a side in a civil brawl, which may be hinted at by a "Brother against brother" line.

  There may be many more examples, but they are somewhat hard for me to elaborate without inventing some sort of a social system.​
  
  
• Killing a Mother?
  
  Now, this is a real question. We've been shown an upcoming game as well as a person, who appears to be the final boss of this game. I mean, I'd be glad it wasn't the case, but I feel like it cannot be made more obvious.
  Remember, that the characters we play as are the children of Sanctuary. What is it going to be, regarding the lore moving forward, when the children kill their mother? Any more doom than this?
  
  And while I like to entertain the idea of Creator being evil (outside of Diablo as well), there is something fundamentally wrong with taking on the said Creator. It brings us to the biblical story of Cain and Abel, and makes me remember that Diablo is a Cain's story.
  The one of being too late, of sacrifices never sufficient, of having every possible reason to Hate the Creator.
  
  For now I am just very sad that Rathma didn't particularly mean us in his plea.​

@deepstrasz Flat chest is the way to go though. Fits her way more.

@MasterBlaster Keep in mind that there are going to be several item-slots with 2 sockets. So it's not a single runeword you're going to play with. However initially I had a similar response.
Also, the environment is meant to be darker, but that doesn't say anything about contrast. Either what you saw is a WIP or... Whimsydale got the best of you. :)

 

[MasterBlaster]

Keep in mind that there are going to be several item-slots with 2 sockets. So it's not a single runeword you're going to play with. However initially I had a similar response.

Not what I've meant - I know we will be able to use a couple of runewords at the same time and that's cool, but what I would like to see is some runewords that are comprised of more than 2 runes.

I want it to stay dark, I just want it to have more things going on, not just various shades of grey with some greyed out green, like we can see in their winter or destert locations (which I absolutely love!)

 

[Kerael]

@MasterBlaster I know, but from what I can tell, the current design inhibits this. The condition + action runes with their respective ▲+▼ shapes seem to only allow combinations of 2 runes.
It's also kinda sad that the runes don't give any boni on their own, unlike how they used to behave. Additionally, if they add gems on top of runes, the rune+gem combinations would be prohibited.

Rathma hypnotizes the Zakarum priest into willingly giving blood (so much for mercy I guess; the priest cared about "Rathma") but the other two party members were forced to bleed, thus why did the ritual work?

By the way, all three of those have already spilled the Blood of the Willing, sealing their fate. The force applied to the Barbarian and the Scoundrel was more of a cinematic move, simply a confirmation of the said pact.

 

[MasterBlaster]

@Kerael I know the current design inhibits this, that's why I'm suggesting they improve it Also, shape of the runes isn't really a problem - if they had 3 sockets arranged in a triangular shape, they could make it so that if there are 2 sockets at the bottom and 1 on top, you can have 1 conditional + 2 effects and if there are 2 sockets on top and 1 at the bottom, you can have 2 conditionals and 1 effect For 2+2 they could go with a square

 

[deepstrasz]

2. I've heard that the max level for D4 is going to be 40 - I think that's a bit too low.

I think it might be like with Diablo II where normal gets you to 40 and then you have to play on the next difficulties for more experience. Who knows.

When I saw them in the gameplay trailer, I was just stunned how darkly true they were executed.

You've linked the DIV gameplay trailer. Would you please point out where in the video do enemies have instant kill abilities like the alpha/beta Siegebreaker Assault Beast? Because what I've seen in that trailer was Ashava hitting hard, potentially killing players in one go like Belial's green bile circles on higher difficulties in DIII.

Weapon Swap for Barbarians should also have a 0.2 sec "busy" animation. You can move but not perform attacks. This will prevent the Barbarians' increased item-limit from being an outright imba and will also include some thinking process regarding the execution of your combos. Maybe you can whip out your two-handers to finish stunned enemies, but doing so in the heat of things would most likely get you stunned instead.

Similarly with switching between ranged and melee weapons on an Amazon or any class for that matter.
Also, would you guys want to see bomb, gas and whatnot potion throwing make a comeback?

Only a small subset of abilities can cancel these 'animations'. Namely, the escape/mobility skills along with the newly added Dash should be able to interrupt attack backswings, on-block staggers, etc.

Yeah, and such instant evasion or escape manoeuvres should require stamina or something.

For Diablo IV I wish these interactions to be more like 'Meanwhile, I burned your main village to ash. How do you like it, nephalem?'. Just some real lines about real actions with consequences, not an hour-long invitation to kill them.

I think they might go with the DII Marius type of storytelling seeing how the gameplay trailer showed that Horadrim drunk talking to Cain's grave(? or just another Horadrim's) referring to a dream the character had about Hell and stuff. That's similar to DII Marius' plot.

not an hour-long invitation to kill them.

Praeludium .

"...It always starts with a journey to a distant land. There I find a city in flames. Streets choked with corpses. Unthinkable destruction. I witness senseless slaughter. Brother against brother. Pure hatred.
And then, executions. Agony. Suffering surrounded me. Until, my turn comes... They cut my ear. Loot my gold.
I Alt+F4 in terror. There's noone left to stand against them..."

And/or let the scenery and visuals do the talking putting the player on thoughts.

I'm sure Cain's Grave would be a meaningful place to visit. I even suppose that it is already visited in the cutscene bit of the gameplay trailer.

Hope they don't make an undead boss of all/most of the friendly characters for villain lols.

As for Duriel, technically he can be revived, since he's something like an uber-creature, not a Prime Evil or the like.

Technically, Duriel is considered a lesser evil and basically every demon, especially powerful ones can reincarnate if possessing a host. If they decide to bring some characters back (which won't make much sense unless they retcon DII and even III since Tyrael said, Diablo was released, with the demon being fused to the other "essences"), the reincarnated demons should not look or be the same because their hosts won't be. Moreover, it'd be a surprise not to realize what demon we'd be fighting until a point since the new host won't make them look as before albeit the main characteristics would be defined by the demon's soul.

For now I am just very sad that Rathma didn't particularly mean us in his plea.

Us didn't mean them both but everyone. It's more of a twisted prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Flat chest is the way to go though. Fits her way more.

I don't think flat chests are a good depiction of mothers or fertile women.
But I am pretty sure it's the demon's "infant" form since Lilith has basically just bee reborn through and by blood.

I want it to stay dark, I just want it to have more things going on, not just various shades of grey with some greyed out green, like we can see in their winter or destert locations (which I absolutely love!)

What 50 shades of gray aren't enough for you?

Not what I've meant - I know we will be able to use a couple of runewords at the same time and that's cool, but what I would like to see is some runewords that are comprised of more than 2 runes.

Huh? Just 2? I mean, that was the fun of Diablo II putting as many runes as possible sockets. And they all should be connected to each other. They can also learn from Path of Exile's socket bonus system where each socket gem can give a bonus to the next one if properly linked.

By the way, all three of those have already spilled the Blood of the Willing, sealing their fate.

Just to open the gate. It was no need to hypnotize the Zakarum priest then. So I think it wasn't the case. The ritual had to be done willingly till the end and it didn't seem like that with the two thieves.

 

[Dr Super Good]

They've said you can play this game solo and it's only optional to have a party for world events or go PvP.

You could do the same in Diablo III, except you would never be able to achieve the same maximum GR number as one could in a party.

Diablo was never about being a superhero in the comic book sense.

Tell that to the Diablo II Hammerdin build...

Diablo III just took it to a stupid level after inflation kicked in.

Yeah, that's a valid point however, Nihlathak in DII and not only could kill your character with one spell (corpse explosion). Similarly in Diablo III the lasers and frozen stars could kill you in a matter of seconds.

Properly built characters needed 2-3 corpse explosions to die, unless a particularly high health monster was exploded. On could work around this by carefully destroying the corpses, however at this stage the game was no longer an action RPG but rather a stealth game.

Diablo III one could build around the lasers and frozen orbs. If your character was tough enough you could tank them at all difficulties except the hardest greater rifts. I agree that originally they used to be difficult to cope with but that was largely because AH prices forced most people into glass cannon builds and that one had to deal with hit stun locking and other unfun mechanics which would prevent you from repositioning.

Classes like the wizard will be fragile.

Actually due to Archon mode they are one of the toughest classes in the game when doing greater rifts. Hitting 100 billion toughness at times.

Barbarians and Crusaders are the most resistant but if players don't find proper gear or invest in damage bonuses instead of armour/defense and life, they will have issues on higher difficulties where it will take minutes-hours to kill bosses.

Once you have your sets and accompanying gear even Torment 16 bosses do not take long to down. What limits your ability to do Torment 16 is your ability to survive being hit. Greater Rift bosses, which are the only tough bosses, should not take longer than 5 minutes or so, otherwise you will not be clearing in time.

Inflation completely destroyed Diablo III. It is possible to literally be unkillable in Torment 16 while still killing everything efficiently.

They should have made Azmodan cast that rarely.

The issue with the ability was not it being hard to dodge, but rather that it was massively punishing for solo play since it only effected 1 person. If you played in a party of 4 the ability was trivial as it would only shut down 1 player while in flight leaving 3/4 to be hitting Azmodan. In single player it rendered you unable to damage him for considerable time.

Azmodan's main killer ability was his dark pools. Those things were huge, spawned under you and if you were not fast enough at killing him became permanent. One literally spent 2/3 of the fight dodging his pools.

His rain of corpses also was instant cast and did insane damage requiring you to run and prey to survive it.

He also had an eye laser which was similar to the fireball and could stack with it. However like the fireball this was only an issue for solo players since in a party of 4 at least some people could continue to DPS him.

Tal Rasha was an initiate who volunteered and suggested that demons might be contained by strong willed people by connecting their body directly to the a soulstone.

He was already one of if not the most powerful of the Horodrim back then...

Also, we don't exactly know what happened with Mephisto's soulstone. Diablo II made it pretty clear that by using Hephasto's Hell Forge Hammer on the stone in the Hellforge would stop Mephisto from manifesting again.

It did not stop them being reborn. It stopped them from entering Sanctuary due to the World Stone.

The World Stone was configured in such a way that it quickly drained all the power from Demons who manifested into Sanctuary. This acted as a shield protecting Sanctuary from direct demonic invasion. Mephisto realized that the content of angelic Soul Stones are not affected by the World Stone and so can be used to contain their demonic powers allowing them full power in Sanctuary. As such he hatched a plan to trick the angels into imprisoning them in Soul Stones.

Things did not go to plan. After being defeated by the lesser evils and banished to Sanctuary they were already greatly weakened. He also greatly overestimated the power drain from the World Stone leaving them weak and vulnerable. Both Mephisto and Diablo were easily captured by the Horodrim, who were well aware that they would corrupt anyone near them from within the stones so proceeded to place them in remote and hard to access locations. Baal, being the most powerful of the Evils, realized that things were going wrong and so badly damaged the soul stone intended for him resulting in Tal Rasha, being the most powerful of the Horodrim, using his body to prevent Baal from escaping the stone and sealed himself away in a remote location. However as time progressed and the location of the soul stones was forgotten, some mortals decided to found a religion around the complex which housed Mephisto's soul stone, eventually encountering the stone itself and falling to its corruption. It was only much later that Tyrael realized that the Soul Stones were a huge mistake as they were exactly what the Prime Evils wanted as they bypassed the protection the World Stone offered.

In Diablo II your mission was to destroy the soul stones, forever banishing the Prime Evils back to hell. Of course you failed this mission as despite having killed all 3 prime evils and shattered 2 of their soul stones, the World Stone was destroyed and hence they could manifest themselves without the use of soul stones and still retain their full power.

Also, DII did not say anything about soulstones pertaining the lesser evils but since we don't see them in DIII, it's safe to assume they were pretty dead.

Azmodan and Belial were alive, as mentioned in the manual.

Andarial and Durial who were killed would eventually remanifest themselves. They were killed so easily due to the weakening effect of the World Stone limiting their power. Diablo used them to stall you, preventing you from catching up to him.

I'm talking about the gameplay. In terms of story, Azmodan is an idiot in Diablo III telling you everything that will follow and eventually how to get to Hell and kill the demon.

He was not an idiot as each of those steps was extremely difficult to do, especially on Inferno difficulty. Getting to Act 3 without abusing exploits was very difficult, and even then it would be several hundred hours before you could stand a chance to get passed Ghrom let along any of the other bosses.

Actually killing Inferno Azmodan without being carried or abusing an exploit was a real achievement.

Where is that mentioned?

Diablo III Act 5 when you enter the Pandemonium Fortress. She is the soul that the Wizard is given the power of death from.

2. I've heard that the max level for D4 is going to be 40 - I think that's a bit too low.

Possibly will be raised as content is added. Might also be that 40 levels is just for base hero progress, with paragon style levelling applying outside that as well.

When I saw them in the gameplay trailer, I was just stunned how darkly true they were executed.

What instant skill mechanics? I did not notice any during the trailer...

While we're at it, I'd like to point out that the Damage/Toughness ratio in Diablo III is just bad and frustrating. Unless you go for a Barbarian/Crusader, you're left much more anxious to engage the demon hordes since they can pretty much one-shot you if they have certain affixes. I've gathered quite a graveyard of Demon Hunters mostly because of momentary lags.
Diablo II handled this balance much better. You could die either way, but the Health Globe didn't behave as an [on/off] LED.

Diablo III actually did this well when it was first released with players and monsters being comparably tough. Only due to inflation is this totally off now.

Since PvP seems to be a thing, they will likely/hopefully balance closer to initial Diablo III than current Diablo III.

I'd like to suggest this approach to be more general, rather than specific. Not excluding the cool boni from the Legendaries, of course. So let's say the Damage/Defense from the items scales with durability: 100% value at 100% down to 90% durability → 50% value at 0% durability (and you can't use the item at 0). And let's say an item lasts for 40-60 minutes on average. This will make the players more conscious of the gear they're using, which is only right, in my opinion, since the gear-slot number is reduced to just 5 armor + 2/4 weapons.

The issue with durability is that repairing it has to be difficult enough to justify its existence.

In Diablo II gold is so trivial you just hit repair every time you are in town.
In Diablo III when first released gold was not trivial so repairing weapons had a noticeable cost. One had to make sure to be doing enough to justify the repair cost or one would lose money.
In Diablo III now gold is so trivial that you just hit repair every time you are in town.

In order for repair to be worth having as a mechanic it needs to be something the player near constantly considers. For example they go around picking up items of similar types just for use to repair their items when their durability starts to run low.

As for Duriel, technically he can be revived, since he's something like an uber-creature, not a Prime Evil or the like. So we can expect that the Creator of Sanctuary, or even some of the higher-up Necromancers, would be capable of reviving the beast. However I would prefer that instead, Duriel's offspring would haunt the players nemesis-style while in caves and dungeons, blocking the exits for the duration of the fight.

Duriel is a an Evil, just like Diablo.

Diablo... he is so old and tired already. Even his skull in the trailer looks especially elderly. @Dr Super Good Can there be a Diablo game without Diablo himself, being alive? Very much yes, as long as it is vivid, that the world is being built on his corpse. After all, it's not like his spirit will leave the Sanctuary anytime soon. He had entailed consequences and he will be referenced more than he needs too. No need in Diablo fight all over again. Except maybe a Shadow of Diablo as a blunt plug.

Kind of the point of Diablo is that one is dealing with immortal forces. If Diablo shows up for Diablo IV is another question, but he should show up again eventually.

Also I am sure a lot of fans want him to show up in IV and be his actual Diablo II/HotS form rather than the female Diablo III form.

 

[Feng Shui]

I don't get the spam joke. Are you referring to the flat chest in the intro. Would that make it not a reiteration?

Same old story, people are foaming at the mouth over what is and what isn't a social justice issue. Ergo, it'll either have to be really, really good to satiate these morons, or Lilith will need to have melons like Andariel.

 

[Kerael]

You've linked the DIV gameplay trailer. Would you please point out where in the video do enemies have instant kill abilities like the alpha/beta Siegebreaker Assault Beast? Because what I've seen in that trailer was Ashava hitting hard, potentially killing players in one go like Belial's green bile circles on higher difficulties in DIII.

What instant skill mechanics? I did not notice any during the trailer...

Ah, my bad, guys. Totally forgot the timestamp as this moment was pretty much everything what the gameplay trailer condensed into for me. :D
Here it is: 2:06, updated my first post.
The impaling attack is what I was referring to.

Also, would you guys want to see bomb, gas and whatnot potion throwing make a comeback?

Of course! But they would either require their own slot, or will be a modification on a Healing Potion (drop a bomb on use). But most likely, they will be a skill for an Assassin/Demon Hunter kind of character.
They were really cool (in concept) for Diablo II, but kinda inconvenient to use.

Yeah, and such instant evasion or escape manoeuvres should require stamina or something.

How about the generic Dash along with character-specific Escapes use Stamina? And Stamina could also be used for Sprint (since Dash doesn't increase overall speed). And the Stamina bar is where it should be, although it is universally Hated, for a reason (but on the other hand it was nice with the Stamina Shrine until higher levels). Just some ideas, haven't really thought through.

I think they might go with the DII Marius type of storytelling seeing how the gameplay trailer showed that Horadrim drunk talking to Cain's grave(? or just another Horadrim's) referring to a dream the character had about Hell and stuff. That's similar to DII Marius' plot.

Indeed, it seemed quite reminiscent. Would like a character like him as a narrator. The choice of voice acting appears to imply the same.

And/or let the scenery and visuals do the talking putting the player on thoughts.

Yeah, that's what I meant! That the core emotions were already evoked by the grand and very, very detailed scenery before.

Hope they don't make an undead boss of all/most of the friendly characters for villain lols.

But you know that it is technically a possibility. :)

Technically, Duriel is considered a lesser evil and basically every demon, especially powerful ones can reincarnate if possessing a host. If they decide to bring some characters back (which won't make much sense unless they retcon DII and even III since Tyrael said, Diablo was released, with the demon being fused to the other "essences"), the reincarnated demons should not look or be the same because their hosts won't be. Moreover, it'd be a surprise not to realize what demon we'd be fighting until a point since the new host won't make them look as before albeit the main characteristics would be defined by the demon's soul.

Duriel is a an Evil, just like Diablo.

I wasn't completely sure about what laws does he follow in regards to reincarnation, since he is not a Prime Evil for sure. Now, Lesser Evils, do they get to have a Soulstone? But it only revives by implication, as it is basically a contraption meant to imprison the spirit. Yet Fallen guys can be revived. :thinking:
Either way, it wasn't the main point as much as the fact that simply reviving Duriel plot-wise would most likely suck. My guess is that Duriel's breed would show up to players asking if they found Baal.

Us didn't mean them both but everyone. It's more of a twisted prayer to the Blessed Virgin Mary.

Yeah, but I mean, not everyone. I don't think Rathma would be exactly an ally.

I don't think flat chests are a good depiction of mothers or fertile women.
But I am pretty sure it's the demon's "infant" form since Lilith has basically just bee reborn through and by blood.

Yes, precisely! This is why. She is primarily a hysteric demon and only then, a mother. Hence the body type.
She's in her birthday suit, that's for sure. But the form will remain, as can be seen on this pic.

Lovely, that.

Just to open the gate. It was no need to hypnotize the Zakarum priest then. So I think it wasn't the case. The ritual had to be done willingly till the end and it didn't seem like that with the two thieves.

And indeed the gate has opened. :) I guess the words had to be spoken by a victim, but that doesn't have to include the other two. There are shots of giving blood willingly in groups of three taped on the video. And that's a yes in any occult handbook.

Diablo III actually did this well when it was first released with players and monsters being comparably tough. Only due to inflation is this totally off now.
Since PvP seems to be a thing, they will likely/hopefully balance closer to initial Diablo III than current Diablo III.

Yes, inflation is what I meant. Don't quite remember the initial balance, since I joined DIII a few months before RoS.

The issue with durability is that repairing it has to be difficult enough to justify its existence.
<...>
In order for repair to be worth having as a mechanic it needs to be something the player near constantly considers. For example they go around picking up items of similar types just for use to repair their items when their durability starts to run low.

Using some sorts of materials for repairs in addition to gold cost is a good idea. But I'd say these materials are what is also used in crafting. That way a player would have to decide if he wants to save up for a new piece or to repair the existing one for the time being. Until he has millions, that is.

Kind of the point of Diablo is that one is dealing with immortal forces. If Diablo shows up for Diablo IV is another question, but he should show up again eventually.
Also I am sure a lot of fans want him to show up in IV and be his actual Diablo II/HotS form rather than the female Diablo III form.

Immortal forces - yes, but Diablo all over again, not necessarily. However that would be a surprise.
Hold on. It just dawned on me that The Three may very well be resummoned as I initially predicted during the livestream announcement. Lilith doesn't have to be a final boss villain lady. I mean why would she be, even? So she might save everyone, after all.

EDIT: Noticed a couple of details.

• Rathma has his left little finger cut. No idea if this is already mentioned in the existing lore, probably just necromancer things.
• And Lilith has polychromatism: her right eye is grey and the left one is blue; subtle, but consistent across the trailer and the pic.

 

[deepstrasz]

You could do the same in Diablo III, except you would never be able to achieve the same maximum GR number as one could in a party.

Sure but I was specifically referring to the story parts.

however at this stage the game was no longer an action RPG but rather a stealth game.

More like tactical RPG

The issue with the ability was not it being hard to dodge, but rather that it was massively punishing for solo play since it only effected 1 person. If you played in a party of 4 the ability was trivial as it would only shut down 1 player while in flight leaving 3/4 to be hitting Azmodan. In single player it rendered you unable to damage him for considerable time.

Ah, well now that world events will be cooperative, stuff like these could be cool, one player distracting the boss while another backstabs.

Azmodan's main killer ability was his dark pools. Those things were huge, spawned under you and if you were not fast enough at killing him became permanent. One literally spent 2/3 of the fight dodging his pools.

Isn't that the case with Belial's bile pools which are becoming more and more when cast as the boss' life goes down?

He was already one of if not the most powerful of the Horodrim back then...

It's not specified I think but the character was a mage, not a regular host like say Albrecht.

The World Stone was configured in such a way that it quickly drained all the power from Demons who manifested into Sanctuary. This acted as a shield protecting Sanctuary from direct demonic invasion. Mephisto realized that the content of angelic Soul Stones are not affected by the World Stone and so can be used to contain their demonic powers allowing them full power in Sanctuary. As such he hatched a plan to trick the angels into imprisoning them in Soul Stones.

That's the lame retcon they made. The only proper story is that the soulstones weren't perfect and the demons corrupt people in the end so that they would be set free which made more sense than anything they came up with later, especially the black soulstone and marked essences, lol. The point being, the retcon basically nullifying the soulstone plot. And it also doesn't make sense. There was no certainty that Aiden would put the crystal in the forehead to restore Diablo. The only thing that would make sense is them linking the soulstones to the corrupted Worldstone which didn't happen to obvious and known reasons.

Things did not go to plan. After being defeated by the lesser evils and banished to Sanctuary they were already greatly weakened. He also greatly overestimated the power drain from the World Stone leaving them weak and vulnerable. Both Mephisto and Diablo were easily captured by the Horodrim, who were well aware that they would corrupt anyone near them from within the stones so proceeded to place them in remote and hard to access locations. Baal, being the most powerful of the Evils, realized that things were going wrong and so badly damaged the soul stone intended for him resulting in Tal Rasha, being the most powerful of the Horodrim, using his body to prevent Baal from escaping the stone and sealed himself away in a remote location. However as time progressed and the location of the soul stones was forgotten, some mortals decided to found a religion around the complex which housed Mephisto's soul stone, eventually encountering the stone itself and falling to its corruption. It was only much later that Tyrael realized that the Soul Stones were a huge mistake as they were exactly what the Prime Evils wanted as they bypassed the protection the World Stone offered.

This is a wrong conspiracy retcon.
The prime evils lost especially because the lesser ones plotted against them after they lost a battle against the angels. Afterwards, Tyrael ensured the evils would be trapped on Sanctuary in soulstones not to manifest again in the Eternal Conflict. The angel did not foresee that the demons would be so strong to still be able to act from within those stones but that was because humanity was weak and easily corrupted.
Diablo's soulstone was hidden in a cave in Khanduras and the Horadrim built a Cathedral over the place as a means to protect the stone from being taken or found. It was human error that the Horadrim dwindled with years of inactivity and the cathedral felt to ruin.
The prime evils had no idea about the soulstones. How could they!? It was all a secret between Tyrael and the Horadrim.
It's not mentioned whether Baal's soulstone was fragmented by the demon, accident or during a fight. They imagined the stones could be problematic but it was better than having the demons free. But in no way did the thee brothers plan this. It's wrong and kills the purpose of the soulstone story entirely. Afterwards, Tyrael tried finding another solution with the stones being destroyed with a special hammer in a special place in Hell.

In Diablo II your mission was to destroy the soul stones, forever banishing the Prime Evils back to hell. Of course you failed this mission

Since DIII and external material beforehand. I have no recollection of this in DII or its expansion.

the World Stone was destroyed and hence they could manifest themselves without the use of soul stones and still retain their full power.

I don't remember any mention of the Worldstone until LoD, thus the soulstones were not necessarily linked to the Worldstone. The W-stone had to be destroyed because corrupted, it would have became far more dangerous and everyone had no idea what would happen if the stone would be destroyed. Some thought it'd be the end of the world, others that maybe salvation.

And from Tyrael's DII quotes (Tyrael/Dialogue) Mephisto wasn't even free yet. It was Diablo and Baal who set the demon free. However, Tyrael mentions the Zakarum Temple hosting the gates to Hell. Weirdly, since Tyrael was watching Diablo, the angel should have known if Mephisto also did the same to Khurast/Zakarum as Diablo to Tristram.
OK, Izual says this in DII:

Spoiler

"Tyrael was a fool to have trusted me! You see, it was I who told Diablo and his Brothers about the Soulstones and how to corrupt them. It was I who helped the Prime Evils mastermind their own exile to your world. The plan we set in motion so long ago cannot be stopped by any mortal agency. Hell itself is poised to spill forth into your world like a tidal wave of blood and nightmares. You and all your kind...are doomed."

It's not clear that it means it was Izual's idea in the first place but that only Izual betrayed Tyrael by telling the demons how to corrupt the stones.
But the Tyrael says:

Spoiler

Izual helped Diablo and his Brothers trick me into using the Soulstones against them... Now the Stones' powers are corrupted.

Which means that Izual was part of the Soulstones plan in design.
But then Tyrael says:

Spoiler

But beware, the Lord of Terror is not to be underestimated. He single-handedly destroyed the town of Tristram and corrupted the last noble hero who tried to stop him.This time, you must defeat him for good. Only by destroying the Soulstone which he carries will his spirit be banished forever

LoL. I guess it's either a plot hole or they didn't write it properly.
And then:

Spoiler

Diablo and Mephisto have been banished back into the Black Abyss that spawned them and the corrupted Soulstones are no more.

So, it actually didn't work against them apart from the corruption thing.

The Worldstone didn't destroy Baal, at least it's not mentioned.

Spoiler

The Archangel Tyrael has always been our benefactor, but even he cannot help us now. For Baal blocks Tyrael's spiritual presence from entering the chamber of the Worldstone. Only you, mortal, have the power to defeat Baal now.

I stand whip lashingly corrected.

Spoiler

I am impressed, mortal. You have overcome the greatest challenge this world has ever faced and defeated the last of the Prime Evils. However, we are too late to save the Worldstone. Baal's destructive touch has corrupted it completely.
Given enough time, the Worldstone's energies will drain away and the barriers between the worlds will shatter -- the powers of Hell will flood into this...Sanctuary...and eradicate your people and everything you've labored to build.
Therefore, I must destroy the corrupted Worldstone before the powers of Hell take root. This act will change your world forever -- with consequences even I cannot foresee. However, it is the only way to ensure mankind's survival.
May the Eternal Light shine upon you and your descendants for what you've done this day. The continued survival of mankind is your legacy! Above all else, you have earned a rest from this endless battle.

They could have easily continued from here without retconning any of the Diablo lore with Adria, Aiden, black soulstone, marked essences. Basically all they had to do was to leave humanity as it was, not make it stronger and we would have battled the lesser evils who would have surfaced and become more powerful and then RoS with Malthael going bat shit crazy.

the World Stone was destroyed and hence they could manifest themselves without the use of soul stones and still retain their full power.

Indeed, now it remains to be known what the Black Abyss was and if it was that easy to get out of there to Hell and then to Sanctuary. Besides, the lesser evils would have trapped the prime ones themselves just in case. Well, the infighting could have brought the three back for sure.

Diablo III Act 5 when you enter the Pandemonium Fortress. She is the soul that the Wizard is given the power of death from.

Thanks!
Isendra could have been less blunt about the circumstances of the character's death and say that revenge isn't important, that sort of thing for the wizard not to get any ideas on vengeance.

In order for repair to be worth having as a mechanic it needs to be something the player near constantly considers. For example they go around picking up items of similar types just for use to repair their items when their durability starts to run low.

Did it work better in the first game?

Also I am sure a lot of fans want him to show up in IV and be his actual Diablo II/HotS form rather than the female Diablo III form.

I'd love surprising form. Maybe the character will corrupt the hero's mount!

Same old story, people are foaming at the mouth over what is and what isn't a social justice issue. Ergo, it'll either have to be really, really good to satiate these morons, or Lilith will need to have melons like Andariel.

What are your expectations and what do you suggest?

The impaling attack is what I was referring to.

How da'heck did I miss that? Awesome! Hey Doc, look at that!

They were really cool (in concept) for Diablo II, but kinda inconvenient to use.

You kidding? I used lots of them when I could. Some of them were even stronger than my weapon at the time

How about the generic Dash along with character-specific Escapes use Stamina? And Stamina could also be used for Sprint (since Dash doesn't increase overall speed). And the Stamina bar is where it should be, although it is universally Hated, for a reason (but on the other hand it was nice with the Stamina Shrine until higher levels). Just some ideas, haven't really thought through.

Since we have mounts now, we could combo stamina use. While the mount rests, the hero runs and the other way around. Of course, that wouldn't be too realistically looking since you running would mean the mount would not be near you anymore to get on, lol.

My guess is that Duriel's breed would show up to players asking if they found Baal.

xD

Spoiler

And indeed the gate has opened. I guess the words had to be spoken by a victim, but that doesn't have to include the other two. There are shots of giving blood willingly in groups of three taped on the video. And that's a yes in any occult handbook.

Well, the ritual implied blood from three willingly. Also, these were not occultists, they were victims, not initiates.

Hold on. It just dawned on me that The Three may very well be resummoned as I initially thought mid-way through the livestream announcement. Lilith doesn't have to be a final boss villain lady. I mean why would she be, even? So she might save everyone, after all.

It's clear that it is an important/main character since you don't start a game like that with minor characters. None of the Diablo games started with minor characters being shown. Well, the first game started with Tirstram which was the main place things started happening in that time frame.

About the other evils coming back. It would be OK if done smartly but DIII didn't do that, sadly. Also, maybe they won't because the story is centered around Rathma and Lilith. We'll see.

 

[Kerael]

You kidding? I used lots of them when I could. Some of them were even stronger than my weapon at the time

I've stopped using them at certain levels and that's what was bad about them. They only had 3 levels of specific values and became obsolete rather quickly. Also I liked to use right-click for the ranged attacks so that you don't have to click on units. But iirc the right-click button defaults to a melee attack, so that was a downer since there are only so much charges and you don't usually repair throwing potions.
Not that I haven't enjoyed them.

Since we have mounts now, we could combo stamina use. While the mount rests, the hero runs and the other way around. Of course, that wouldn't be too realistically looking since you running would mean the mount would not be near you anymore to get on, lol.

Mounts can be transported to/from the player via Town Portals.

Well, the ritual implied blood from three willingly.

None of them were forced.

Also, these were not occultists, they were victims, not initiates.

Not sure if critical. Any human blood would do.
But were they consciously consenting to what waited there for them? Not really. However they have agreed that giving blood is the right thing to do and that's what was expected of them. On the altar itself only the rest of the blood was taken so that Lilith may incarnate. This was like a fine print the didn't pay attention to.

It's clear that it is an important/main character since you don't start a game like that with minor characters. None of the Diablo games started with minor characters being shown. Well, the first game started with Tirstram which was the main place things started happening in that time frame.

About the other evils coming back. It would be OK if done smartly but DIII didn't do that, sadly. Also, maybe they won't because the story is centered around Rathma and Lilith. We'll see.

Didn't mean that. Just pondering the idea if she's not the cause of the troubles, but an answer to them. Rathma's plea might as well be literal.
Yeah, we'll see. I hope they're after real stuff with this one, not just restyling what's already there.

 

[deepstrasz]

I've stopped using them at certain levels and that's what was bad about them.

Sure but they can escalate them in DIV

Mounts can be transported to/from the player via Town Portals.

No portal scroll needed?

Nope, that was only for the entrance. The whole thing had to be done willingly including the liberation of blood from their bodies to form the triangle placenta, hence why the priest was hypnotized but the other two weren't quite in the goods with it anymore, especially the barbarian as the other one got taken by surprise.

But were they consciously consenting to what waited there for them? Not really. However they have agreed that giving blood is the right thing to do and that's what was expected of them. On the altar itself only the rest of the blood was taken so that Lilith may incarnate.

Which was mandatory to solidify the blood pact.
It's a detail they missed but it's no story killer.

Didn't mean that. Just pondering the idea if she's not the cause of the troubles, but an answer to them. Rathma's plea might as well be literal.

Yeah, that might turn the tides, lol. Although knowing demons, it might just be a perversion .

Yeah, we'll see. I hope they're after real stuff with this one, not just restyling what's already there.

Me too.

By the way, why three? Does it have any relation to the three brothers or is it just a coincidence, a sort of magic number?

 

[Kerael]

Sure but they can escalate them in DIV

Yep, that would be a way to go. Imagine all non-resource-refilling potions being throwing potions. Not necessarily realistic, but with some fine gameplay interactions. So you can dispel a cloud of poison along with the guys in aoe (animation literally consumes the cloud-bits, making the air clean in the area) or thaw ice and frozen people with some nice watery animation.

No portal scroll needed?

In order to uphold the world order, of course mounting up outside cities would cost a portal scroll!

Nope, that was only for the entrance. The whole thing had to be done willingly including the liberation of blood from their bodies to form the triangle placenta, hence why the priest was hypnotized but the other two weren't quite in the goods with it anymore, especially the barbarian as the other one got taken by surprise.
<...>
Which was mandatory to solidify the blood pact.
It's a detail they missed but it's no story killer.

I don't really disagree with you here, since I've had similar doubts before. But given another thought, while recalling that each frame of a movie should (in theory) hold some meaning, I've came to a conclusion that this meaning is more symbolical than literal. Such as only a drop of blood is actually required as an agreement, as long as it is spilled willingly. The rest is of lesser concern.
..a-And maybe a guy speaking the words as well, to confirm the pact and start the drain.

Basically, in its simplest form, the ritual process was correct.

Yeah, that might turn the tides, lol. Although knowing demons, it might just be a perversion .

Hell yeah, it's no joke! There are so many things you can do with demons in your games. You can lie to players (Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice), put them in hairy situations, force decisions in lose/lose scenarios. All the quality stuff. Not sure if it sells though. Might be too stressful for the crowd.

By the way, why three? Does it have any relation to the three brothers or is it just a coincidence, a sort of magic number?

The Three refers to the brothers, indeed. In HotS, Mephisto's passive icon depicts the same runic triangle.

 

[deepstrasz]

Might be too stressful for the crowd.

Time to educate the masses!

The Three refers to the brothers, indeed. In HotS, Mephisto's passive icon depicts the same runic triangle.

It's the sign of the Triune: Temple of the Triune but then why is that related to Lilith other than through Mephisto and what relation does it have to the demoness being locked there? It's not the three who locked Lilith in the first place. It was Inarius according to external material. Maybe, they decided to scrap that and use the game lore instead? Maybe they'll even ignore DIII+RoS and make some sort of LoD continuation?

 

[Dr Super Good]

Sure but I was specifically referring to the story parts.

Well if they go with the good old D2/Release D3 approach then yes you can solo the entire story up to Inferno, only Inferno may need help or grinding.

Isn't that the case with Belial's bile pools which are becoming more and more when cast as the boss' life goes down?

Yes and no. Originally it was also the case, but easier seeing how he was only 62 vs Azmodan who was 63. Now they are a joke and Belial dies before the first pool dodge sequence. If not then you can just tank them as I did a lot in T16 just to show off.

They also improve pool spawn patterns so space is easier to get to. I think more of them exploded and faster in the release version.

It's not specified I think but the character was a mage, not a regular host like say Albrecht.

It was. He had an entire item set associated with him and Cain could not say enough about him...

This is a wrong conspiracy retcon.

A WHAT?!

Diablo's soulstone was hidden in a cave in Khanduras and the Horadrim built a Cathedral over the place as a means to protect the stone from being taken or found. It was human error that the Horadrim dwindled with years of inactivity and the cathedral felt to ruin.

The location of Diablo's soul stone is inconsequential. Mephisto was the first to be set free and it was he that arranged that Leoric be sent to be used to free Diablo. This is not some retcon, this is the official Diablo II lore.

They could have easily continued from here without retconning any of the Diablo lore with Adria, Aiden, black soulstone, marked essences. Basically all they had to do was to leave humanity as it was, not make it stronger and we would have battled the lesser evils who would have surfaced and become more powerful and then RoS with Malthael going bat shit crazy.

It was retconned for the same reason Warcraft lore was. To make something bigger often requires plot holes to be tied up.

Maybe the original Diablo lore team had ideas which would have worked without retcons but were lost when they left Blizzard. Or maybe they never planned anything as big as the ideas the Diablo III team wanted. Or maybe their ideas just out right were bad writing and sucked. We may never know.

Indeed, now it remains to be known what the Black Abyss was and if it was that easy to get out of there to Hell and then to Sanctuary. Besides, the lesser evils would have trapped the prime ones themselves just in case. Well, the infighting could have brought the three back for sure.

It was meant to take time, a lot of time. Like thousands of years. For immortals like angels or demons it is but an instant and an event which occurred many times, but as far as Sanctuary could care it was solved. Like you said, Azmodan and Belial may never have let them regain their full power.

Isendra could have been less blunt about the circumstances of the character's death and say that revenge isn't important, that sort of thing for the wizard not to get any ideas on vengeance.

Was likely intended to be covered by an expansion or two. Diablo III has a lot of loose ends.

Did it work better in the first game?

Never played Diablo I so cannot comment.

 

[deepstrasz]

The location of Diablo's soul stone is inconsequential. Mephisto was the first to be set free and it was he that arranged that Leoric be sent to be used to free Diablo. This is not some retcon, this is the official Diablo II lore.

Really? What character said that? I don't remember it that way.
Judging by Cain's quotes in DII, that what you wrote is bogus: Deckard Cain - Diablo Wiki Might it be from post DII material?
Cain doesn't mention Leoric at all judging by that link.
Nothing in DI about Mephisto apart from the manual: Cain the Elder - Diablo Wiki
Besides, I really can't see Mephisto as the mastermind. Maybe, Baal or Diablo instead.
Because Mephisto was doing the talking (video) it doesn't mean the character was in charge. The thing was that Mephisto reincarnated (to the "true" form) first.

It was retconned for the same reason Warcraft lore was. To make something bigger often requires plot holes to be tied up.

There was no need for such a lame retcon. They had the material to work with but they decided to change or add stuff where it was not needed.

Maybe the original Diablo lore team had ideas which would have worked without retcons but were lost when they left Blizzard. Or maybe they never planned anything as big as the ideas the Diablo III team wanted. Or maybe their ideas just out right were bad writing and sucked. We may never know.

Christ Metzen was doing the writing. I don't know who started barging in later on after LoD.

Never played Diablo I so cannot comment.

They've released the GoG version. It works on Win10. You could play it if you want.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Really? What character said that? I don't remember it that way.
Judging by Cain's quotes in DII, that what you wrote is bogus: Deckard Cain - Diablo Wiki Might it be from post DII material?
Cain doesn't mention Leoric at all judging by that link.
Nothing in DI about Mephisto apart from the manual: Cain the Elder - Diablo Wiki
Besides, I really can't see Mephisto as the mastermind. Maybe, Baal or Diablo instead.
Because Mephisto was doing the talking (video) it doesn't mean the character was in charge. The thing was that Mephisto reincarnated (to the "true" form) first.

I suggest you read the links you post...

"Soon after his imprisonment, Mephisto worked his evil corruption on the Zakarum priesthood. All were turned to his dark ways, save one - Khalim, the Que-Hegan of the High Council."
"Mephisto directed the other Council priests to slay and dismember Khalim and then scatter his remains across the Kingdom. The Priest Sankekur succeeded Khalim as Que-Hegan, eventually becoming the embodiment of Mephisto here on the mortal plane."

As such Mephisto was the first evil to escape.

Also from Diablo I manual...
"It was then that the great northern lord Leoric came unto the lands of Khanduras and, in the name of Zakarum, declared himself King. Leoric was a deeply religious man and had brought many Knights and Priests with him that comprised his Order of the Light. Leoric and his trusted advisor, the Arch Bishop Lazarus, made their way to the city of Tristram. Leoric appropriated the ancient, decrepit Monastery on the outskirts of the town for his seat of power and renovated it to match its time-lost glory."

Hence based on Diablo I and II lore one could easily deduce that Mephisto sent Leoric to Kanduras, or at least had influence over him seeing how Mephisto controlled the Zakarum priesthood from an early stage. Although the exact details may have been retconned, it does not change the fact that in Diablo II it was meant to have been Mephisto that was freed first. This is further supported by the Diablo II cinematic where Mephisto has already manifested by the time Diablo and Baal arrived. Diablo was likely unaware of this so despite setting out to free Mephisto, he did not have to.

 

[deepstrasz]

As such Mephisto was the first evil to escape.

Yeah, forgot to edit.

Also from Diablo I manual...

I know but it doesn't say Lazarus and/or Leoric or anyone for that matter who came to Tristram were corrupted. The manual says Diablo corrupted them, first Lazarus. Mephisto knowing about Tristram hiding Diablo's soulstone is a post LoD retcon. The Zakarum came there to spread the religion, not in search of Diablo. Also, since you like retcons, Zakarum was created with the help of an angel. Actually more than a retcon?
The Arreat Summit - Monsters: Zakarum Zealot
DI manual also states that it was Diablo's terror of Leoric that made Khanduras fight Westmarch. There was no mention of Zakarum being corrupted. So, DII retconned that.

Although the exact details may have been retconned

Yes and they are only stated such after LoD.

This is further supported by the Diablo II cinematic where Mephisto has already manifested by the time Diablo and Baal arrived. Diablo was likely unaware of this so despite setting out to free Mephisto, he did not have to.

Sure. But still, remains to be proven if Mephisto made plans alone. Since, the plan was probably made long ago by the three.

 

[Dr Super Good]

I know but it doesn't say Lazarus and/or Leoric or anyone for that matter who came to Tristram were corrupted.

That is correct. However the fact they were in Tristram in the first place could easily be Mephisto's doing seeing how he had full control over the religion who they both served. Even if not mentioned explicitly at the time (it is now the lore), it was a logical conclusion.

It was later changed to Leoric not being corrupt and instead Lazarus being one of the people Mephisto corrupted. Originally this was not the case and the official lore stated that he was corrupted due to nearby exposure to Diablo.

DI manual also states that it was Diablo's terror of Leoric that made Khanduras fight Westmarch. There was no mention of Zakarum being corrupted. So, DII retconned that.

This is technically the lore still. Since in Diablo III they made it so that Diablo trying to posses Leoric was the cause of his madness which caused him to become schizophrenic. Leoric was just too powerful and incorruptible to be taken over by Diablo.

Sure. But still, remains to be proven if Mephisto made plans alone. Since, the plan was probably made long ago by the three.

He likely did not plan alone. However he still would likely be the one coming up with the plans. I do recall reading such things before Diablo III but since Diablo III launched a lot of the documentation has changed or vanished. Similar to how Archimonde was a demon before World of Warcraft.

In any case Diablo I and Diablo II lore was a mess with often contradictory of vague explanations, which is why Diablo III retconned it so much.

 

[deepstrasz]

That is correct. However the fact they were in Tristram in the first place could easily be Mephisto's doing seeing how he had full control over the religion who they both served. Even if not mentioned explicitly at the time (it is now the lore), it was a logical conclusion.

Sure but Leoric and Lazarus came from the north, not east.

This is technically the lore still. Since in Diablo III they made it so that Diablo trying to posses Leoric was the cause of his madness which caused him to become schizophrenic. Leoric was just too powerful and incorruptible to be taken over by Diablo.

Actually the DI manual said Diablo that first. That's why the demon's attention then shifted to Leoric's only son Albrecht who was very young.

In any case Diablo I and Diablo II lore was a mess with often contradictory of vague explanations, which is why Diablo III retconned it so much.

I don't see that helping but actually making it worse

 

[Feng Shui]

I'll say this. The tone of the game is pretty much a return to style. The cinematic was absolutely sick. But the systems and features panel got me back on the defensive. Mainly because trading will likely be shit with their current philosophy. For several reasons.

In LoD, it consisted of pretty open bartering between anything from complete casuals to people trying to jump the ladder ranks. This was put to practice because of how insanely low the drop rate for items were, but also because rune words made runes and superior quality/socketed items this super viable currency that you could, for the most part, start grinding out early in the game. Low- to mid tier runes were necessary for end game rune words and could help you gain a foothold for trading up even before you got the gear to complete the higher difficulties.

With this two rune combo system, people will likely just stockpile the few runes that play well with their end game gear. Trading runes will pretty much fade out to be a dead practice. And given the best loot will likely be locked away behind high level dungeon grinds, the only trade I can see happening is trading your shit item modifiers for something similar that fits your build better.

 

[Dr Super Good]

Sure but Leoric and Lazarus came from the north, not east.

Does not matter since the leader of their religion was corrupt. I think they purposely left ambiguity so that with Diablo II one could assume Leoric made his way to Tristram not be accident.

Actually the DI manual said Diablo that first. That's why the demon's attention then shifted to Leoric's only son Albrecht who was very young.

Diablo II states that Mephisto had to damage his soul stone in order to manifest. Each shard that was broken off was planted into the arm of one of the church council members with the remaining large chunk going into the host. The shards can visibly be seen on the Council Member sprite, impaled into their corrupt arm.

Hence Mephisto might have been in control a very long time but not manifested yet. Since he had total control he could Manifest whenever he choose. As such he might have waited until Diablo and then Baal were set free so as to not attract too much attention before they could unite.

In LoD, it consisted of pretty open bartering between anything from complete casuals to people trying to jump the ladder ranks.

It consisted of bankers, scammers, hackers and robots constantly trying to make money by selling obtained items online.

Low- to mid tier runes were necessary for end game rune words and could help you gain a foothold for trading up even before you got the gear to complete the higher difficulties.

Due to excessive duplication and robots anything below Pul had absolutely no value. You could trade 40+ and no one would even hand over a Pul. this is because the low end runes had very high drop rates and were easy to obtain. It was only the rare, almost impossible to obtain high runes that had value. Specifically the ones used for Enigma.

To complete higher difficulties early on you had to rely on cheese. Specifically Sorceress and parties.

With this two rune combo system, people will likely just stockpile the few runes that play well with their end game gear. Trading runes will pretty much fade out to be a dead practice. And given the best loot will likely be locked away behind high level dungeon grinds, the only trade I can see happening is trading your shit item modifiers for something similar that fits your build better.

There will almost certainly be no worth while trading at all. Like Diablo III and World of Warcraft.

They would be mad to bring trading back given how bad it is for the social aspect. Since trading was blocked in both Diablo III and made worthless in World of Warcraft the number of account hacks and scams targeting Blizzard BattleNet accounts has fallen to insignificance. At best one could trade early and mid game gear, but all end game gear has to be self found. If it is not self found then robots or account hackers will find it and real money market places will sell it, like Diablo II and Diablo III at release.

 

[deepstrasz]

Does not matter since the leader of their religion was corrupt. I think they purposely left ambiguity so that with Diablo II one could assume Leoric made his way to Tristram not be accident.

Nope. They do not mention Leoric in DII at all, neither Lazarus. Also, Khalim wasn't so just deducing that because post LoD material retconned it is not necessarily the best way to go. It could be left to speculation. It is not a big deal. It's one of those minor retcons like with Gul'dan being behind Blackhand in WcII as opposed to the first Warcraft.

Diablo II states that Mephisto had to damage his soul stone in order to manifest. Each shard that was broken off was planted into the arm of one of the church council members with the remaining large chunk going into the host. The shards can visibly be seen on the Council Member sprite, impaled into their corrupt arm.

I don't remember such things. Only this page says the soulstone was shattered in 7 parts: The Arreat Summit - Monsters: Mephisto but nothing about the shards being kept or pierced into the council members.
Even here it is not mentioned: The Arreat Summit - Monsters: Council Member
Even the wiki doesn't say that: Council Member

Also, judging by what Ormus said, Mephisto was still imprisoned in DII Act III before Baal and Diablo came to their brother.
Ormus - Diablo Wiki

Spoiler

But now the time has come to face those responsible for the evil that has stifled our land. You must destroy the High Council of Zakarum!
Long ago, these elders were charged with the stewardship of Mephisto, the Lord of Hatred, who was imprisoned within the Guardian Tower.
Through the generations, these pious men slowly fell more and more under the sway of Mephisto's malevolent power and the Council became an evil mockery of its former glory.
It is Mephisto's Hatred that has corrupted Zakarum and turned its devout followers into paranoid fanatics. That is why you must travel to the Temple City of Travincal and slay the Council.
Once they are gone, Mephisto's hold over this land and its people will be broken!
You must know that the Guardian Tower in the Temple City was built by the Horadrim for one purpose - to hold Mephisto. Once the Council is dead, you may enter the Tower.
Ormus is grateful to you, stranger. You have broken the long, dark reign of Zakarum and delivered the first paralyzing blow against the Three.
Yet still, the true test lies ahead. For he whom the Council guarded still lives within the Blackened Tower.
Diablo and Baal have surely found the Temple City by now. They seek to free their Brother, Mephisto, who was imprisoned by the Horadrim in the Temple's Guardian Tower.
You must reach him before his Brothers do and prevent them from releasing Hatred upon the world.

Make haste! Though the Three are sure to reunite, it is uncertain as to what they have planned once they do.
I understand that the great Patriarch of Zakarum, Sankekur, now embodies Mephisto.
You must overcome Hatred lest Terror and Destruction claim us all!
I am loath to describe what will happen if Diablo and Baal release Mephisto.

So, Mephisto was not free. Remember that you need Khalim's three organs and the flail to get to Mephisto. It's funny since Baal and Diablo, even Marius somehow got to Mephisto without needing the flail.
And that wasn't Mephisto's plan to be locked there for safety reasons.
The demon only did the same as Diablo in the first game. Strangely enough Baal did not with Lut Gholein. Probably, the distance between the tomb and humanity was too high.
Or Ormus didn't actually know that Mephisto was playing it safe, patiently awaiting for things to unfold? But that would be a stretch since there was no actual way to know where Diablo's soulstone was to plan the Leoric+Lazarus retcon.
So, I guess, Mephisto wasn't free (but don't know how the demon got the host then), corrupted Zakarum like Diablo did Tristram, then was freed by Diablo and Baal and the demon sealed the entrance to the Durance of Hate so that the hero would not get in or at least waste more time doing it requiring Khalim's parts.

But Cain says:

Spoiler

Never forget that your ultimate purpose here in Kurast is to destroy Mephisto. The ancient Horadrim imprisoned the Lord of Hatred inside the Guardian Tower that is located within the Temple City of Travincal.
Know this, friend. The only way to gain entry to Mephisto's prison is to destroy the artifact known as the Compelling Orb.
Mephisto used this device to control the Zakarum Priests and their followers. The Orb can only be destroyed with an ancient flail imbued with the spirit of the one incorruptible priest.
Soon after his imprisonment, Mephisto worked his evil corruption on the Zakarum priesthood. All were turned to his dark ways, save one - Khalim, the Que-Hegan of the High Council.
Mephisto directed the other Council priests to slay and dismember Khalim and then scatter his remains across the Kingdom. The Priest Sankekur succeeded Khalim as Que-Hegan, eventually becoming the embodiment of Mephisto here on the mortal plane.
The corrupted High Council fashioned an Orb to control the rest of the Zakarum faithful and used their powers to hide the lair of their master from mortals.
Your task is to collect the scattered relics of Khalim - his Heart, his Brain, and his Eye. Then, using the Horadric Cube, transmute Khalim's Flail with his relics.
Once this is accomplished, you must destroy the Compelling Orb with Khalim's Will to open the way into the corrupt sanctum of Mephisto.

I understand there are two orbs. One made by the Horadrim to trap Mephisto through which the demon corrupted the council (but how did the host get there then?) and another made by the council to hide the demon.

And in a later quest, Cain says:

Spoiler

Sankekur may be using a Compelling Orb to control the minds of the Children of Zakarum.

Ridding Kurast of the Council of Zakarum was essential. Still, there is more you must do. The Compelling Orb, too, must be destroyed.
Diablo and Baal must be close to finding their brother, Mephisto, by now. You've no time to waste.

I guess, everyone knows the story with differences?

 

[Dr Super Good]

Also, judging by what Ormus said, Mephisto was still imprisoned in DII Act III before Baal and Diablo came to their brother.

Can we just agree that Diablo II lore was a total train wreck? Ormus is basically contradicting Cain and the Diablo II CGI cinematic for the act. I recall my head hurting trying to understand it back long before Diablo III was revealed.

Remember that you need Khalim's three organs and the flail to get to Mephisto.

Or to use the bypass exploit that involves waypoint abuse and carrying... Diablo II lol.

It's funny since Baal and Diablo, even Marius somehow got to Mephisto without needing the flail.

So did a lot of the church people. I suspect Mephisto and the corrupted church were meant to have placed a protective barrier on the place which would deny servants of the light (you) entry. Anyone corrupt was probably free to enter and leave. The flail was needed to break this barrier and allow you entry. It is completely possible that the very Barrier put in to stop Mephisto escaping was corrupted by Mephisto to protect him.

Either that or the entire flail part of Act 3 was either left over from a much earlier Act 3 design or was the result of a design revision and due to time/money constraints the rest of the act was not made consistent with it. Specifically the flail is meant to stop you rushing act 3 in a few minutes since it was extremely tedious to get and needed to access Durance of Hate to reach Mephisto.

 

[deepstrasz]

Can we just agree that Diablo II lore was a total train wreck? Ormus is basically contradicting Cain and the Diablo II CGI cinematic for the act. I recall my head hurting trying to understand it back long before Diablo III was revealed.

We can but could we just say every character had its own view on the story too?

One could only skip it by getting someone who had already defeated Mephisto (and so had access to the waypoint) to teleport to Mephisto which would cause the quest to progress to Kill Mephisto and hence allow you to use their town portal to enter the Mephisto boss area.

I know but that's not storywise

 

[Augustus]

Hagia Sophia? Looks pretty blatant to me. So Caldeum is Istanbul?

Spoiler

 

[deepstrasz]

Hagia Sophia? Looks pretty blatant to me. So Caldeum is Istanbul?

Yeah, my reaction to that as well, the first time I saw it. Hopefully, they won't let it a ripoff. I want them to get inspiration, not copy.

 

[The_Silent]

When it comes to Diablo lore, I think less is more. Given it's horror roots, having everything being known and set is stone, takes away from the premise imho

Contraticting lore even, can be a boon, since it underlines the mystic unknowable nature of the beings of the Diablo universe.

Then again, my favorite is by far the first Diablo game. Probably the mix of horror and rouge-like elements.

 

[deepstrasz]

When it comes to Diablo lore, I think less is more. Given it's horror roots, having everything being known and set is stone, takes away from the premise imho

Indeed but since DII became character full with all those acts, they decided it was best for Cain and others to tell the tale.

Then again, my favorite is by far the first Diablo game. Probably the mix of horror and rouge-like elements.

Yeah, usually, first installments have that mystic feel. What comes later usually retcons stuff or becomes predictable.

 

[Feng Shui]

Due to excessive duplication and robots anything below Pul had absolutely no value. You could trade 40+ and no one would even hand over a Pul. this is because the low end runes had very high drop rates and were easy to obtain. It was only the rare, almost impossible to obtain high runes that had value. Specifically the ones used for Enigma.

I made anything from 1:1 to 1:3 deals for Pul all the time with lower runes. Hel, Lem, Io and Ko for the most part. More commonly I just traded sets of TalThulOrtAmn or RalTirTalSol with Spirit/Insight rollers. Pul was the standard price for one set but I landed an Um or two when people ran out of Pul, were just impatient, or had made previous deals with me and were just nice.

Also, most exploits like duping were down to server desyncs and how it handled saves. It was a very weak system. While they have completely forgotten how to tell a decent story, they've at least bolstered their defenses significantly since the days of Blizzard North.

They would be mad to bring trading back given how bad it is for the social aspect. Since trading was blocked in both Diablo III and made worthless in World of Warcraft the number of account hacks and scams targeting Blizzard BattleNet accounts has fallen to insignificance. At best one could trade early and mid game gear, but all end game gear has to be self found. If it is not self found then robots or account hackers will find it and real money market places will sell it, like Diablo II and Diablo III at release.

I'd be fine with self found end game gear if I had any confidence that they won't tweak the drop rates to bring everybody into the fold. Throwing a daily legendary at people is a good substitute for actually fun game content in making sure people stick with the game. This is a tried and true format they know will hold and my money's on that they'll stick to it.

 

[deepstrasz]

This is a page to follow
Diablo 4 Content Overview: Everything We Know So Far

 

[deepstrasz]

Diablo IV: AusGamers Interview with Game Director Luis Barriga and Art Director John Mueller

 

[Kerael]

Breath of fresh air!

So, it’s also, what if we don't bring him [Diablo the character] back right away? And instead, take the time to explore some of these other characters first.

This is what I was talking about. Diablo himself doesn't have to be in our face all the time for us to truly appreciate the Diablo-world, what it has become after the events, and how it evolves over time.

I.e. you can wage wars and die. The future generations are left in disarray and mention your name for decades, attributing all the destruction to you. It means, you haven't really died yet. Hell, even if you come back to life again, just to check in, more power to you! But please, give us a break until then.

It's great that they are aware of that and are willing to play around with how they are using Diablo's asset in their storytelling. It tells me that they are, once again, serious about the franchise.

On trading, it is interesting to note the critique of the possibility that you could, in D2 for example, be wearing an entire set of gear that was traded for, and not earned from kills. They want to avoid that in D4 but allow some trading, as already outlined: <...>

There is a good video that covers the trading situation (30:20). However I couldn't find the exact quote again, either it's somewhere in the video or it was another person. But it goes like this:

"An item gains value not only from its inherent stats, but also from the fact that someone else might want that item."

I'll read the two interview parts a bit later. For now I'd like to include all the cool details that I've spotted in the Trailer so far. God I love symbolism.

1. Most of the gravestone crosses have 3 upper beams connected with an arch. In whole, it speaks something along the lines of "The Three descend, in union".
   Clearly, it's not what the peasants meant when they built the gravestones, but rather, it's the visual language used by game designers.
   
2. Collapsed altar/lectern in the chapel implies that sacrilege is commonplace. (0:50)
3. Triangle pointed downward symbolises female origin and femininity. They intently oriented the frame in such a way.
   
   By the way, major strides have been made on behalf of social justice of hell.
4. On a similar note, the audio employs a falling tone and the party is headed to the bottom of the shot. This is unrelated to femininity, but serves as a touch of decadence and is cool. (1:07)
5. The focus of the (2:05) shot are the blood vessels, entangling the temple.
   
   I'd like to believe that the message is also about it being alive [the temple/sanctuary at large], instead of simply needing blood for the sake of looking dark. Framed this way, the blood given willingly is a transfusion for someone/something in dire situation. In a twisted way, it's something like hope.
6. (2:23) A depiction of a feminine demon. Similar to DIII Diablo*Leah or Lilith herself. Also some downward triangle action. All in all, an homage to the Evil Mother archetype.
   
7. (2:25) Lilith issues a gasp of relief as the blood drops on the door lock. The doorknobs sink, welcoming the guests.
   As they seal the deal, a series of 13 basses is rolled (14th bass is rather faded, doesn't count). The first 2 basses correspond to the first 2 seals being made, the IIIrd one is skipped, and the 4th bass rolls as the last seal is made. I don't see any symbolism in this. Or do I? :)
8. (4:04) Well, uhm, there is light here...
   
   Reminiscent of 'normal' churches and cathedrals interior. Don't quote me on that just yet. The dome stands for 'the world' and 'divine'. The light means 'divine presence'. But it's dim and cold, so there you go.
   I wish something along the lines of 'divine malevolence' gets explored in the game story. You know, something twisted that a malleable and desperate human mind can spawn, when exposed to shadow for all too long.
   This is not a random shot, after all..:
   
   Spoiler: 21+

   
9. (6:02) Rathma appears. An otherwise well-balanced man in his forties, he misses a little finger on his left hand. Necromancers of Diablo serve to maintain the balance of good and evil. Yet this subtle detail reminds me how in any pursuits of the infinite, we humans/nephalems, ourselves, are finite and prone/subject to sacrifice of various scale in all walks of life.
   Also, note the vivid blood vessels on his head and how the shadow of the blood of the guys plays on his shoulder (6:23 - 6:55).
10. (7:08) Debug/confirmation sound effects are played after the scholar finishes each line (7:13, 7:19 and 7:31 - catharsis). Reminds me of how I employed the same approach with the mode_voting_dialog in my map (3 questions, by the way xD). I believe, this serves one single twofold idea: (1) your voice is heard and (2) your decision plays a role (driving the vicious machinery forward, but ignore that part if you will).
11. Note the bright flash of silver light, accompanying Lilith's return (7:38). With all due respect for the perversion version, this is not what happens when you summon a demon, @deepstrasz. This is something divine descending. And for the people of Sanctuary, she is divine, after all. It's tricky to imagine myself such a worldview, but I'm doing my best! For whatever reason.
    Either way, I wouldn't entertain the idea of her being 'good', unless the imagery and screenplay suggested and supported that.
12. Something has to be said about all the eyes and iris depictions. On the temple walls, there is a ring of iris-looking holes, gazing at the center. There are quite a bit of times they were on the background of the scene, prior to being framed right behind the focal point of the later shots. Apart from the wall-eyes, there are a few scenes literally taking place on the surface of one's eyes. Lilith has heterochromia and Rathma has a line: "Open your eyes" even.
    
    Spoiler: Trigger Warning: Eye Contact

    Note the transition by the way.

    I mean, is there something else to behold?
    Or does it mean that we should be more open towards demons and see them for who they are? As Inarius did.
    Or is it us being watched? Why do the devs say "See you in Hell"?
    For me, this is an open question, still. Will keep an eye out.
13. In conclusion, see how the temple's blood vessels are being filled at a runtime (8:31 - 8:35). Not only a new challenger has approached after the ritual, but the very place [the temple, surrounding soil, Sanctuary at large(?)] has been sated with lifeblood. It also supports my point #5 somewhat.
    

Oh, expected it to be much less, but here we go with a longpost, I guess.
Also, this video does a great job of analysing the trailer, focusing more on the acting and animation subtleties, however.
There's so much more to the trailer than just the 10 minutes of joy. And I hope there will be much more to the game than just a demon-grinder.

 

[deepstrasz]

With all due respect for the perversion version, this is not what happens when you summon a demon, @deepstrasz. This is something divine descending. And for the people of Sanctuary, she is divine, after all. It's tricky to imagine myself such a worldview, but I'm doing my best! For whatever reason.

Are you sure it's not just the camera angle on the light that comes through somewhere from above? The light is blocked by the membrane and after it is ruptured, it gets through, below it as well. In the end, you can see the fascicle coming from high above.
Does not look like demon fire, neither like angel light, but more like sun light.
Regardless, it helps the quote word: "blessed", while the membrane is for "mother".

Lilith has heterochromia

Can confirm it on the concept art as well. The left one is blue while the right is gray, on tone with the demon's skin.
I wonder if that means a sort of shift toward good or evil in the story or if it represents the balance between those two, what Rathma and the necromancers aims for.

Why do the devs say "See you in Hell"?

Because that's where Lilith will be and is icon to Diablo since it's where you usually face Diablo and demons? In the third game we didn't face Diablo in Hell but in Heaven by the way but in the first two games, in Hell.

In conclusion, see how the temple's blood vessels are being filled at a runtime (8:31 - 8:35). Not only a new challenger has approached after the ritual, but the very place [the temple, surrounding soil, Sanctuary at large(?)] has been sated with lifeblood. It also supports my point #5 somewhat.

I don't think anyone was coming. The veins filled with the priest's blood as those veins shown there are on the wall behind the black man.
About blood and stuff, there's a certain similarity to Adria in RoS.

(2:23) A depiction of a feminine demon. Similar to DIII Diablo*Leah or Lilith herself. Also some downward triangle action. All in all, an homage to the Evil Mother archetype.

More like an uterus with ovaries, lol.

And I hope there will be much more to the game than just a demon-grinder.

Definitely, me too.