Balance Changelog: Wish List, Wish not List, and questions

[Map Designer]

Hello,

please explain the reason whenever possible, for your wish list, wish not list, or questions.
Wish list: put what you really like to see in future updates.
Wish not list: put what you wish never happened; Things that you believe were more well thought by original developers and got wrongfully changed without proper consideration to the side effects. (not the changes you wish will never happen, becuz there are infinite ways to screw the balance that no one wishes)
Confused list: ask balance questions here; put your doubts about balance of particular unit/ability.
Perfect changes list: the changes that are just perfect for game balance.


You can also criticize anyone elses wish list, or comment about it.

Before we start:

• I believe Most balance decisions done by original developers have a good reason behind them. Even though I might disagree with the solution done by them, I appreciate their trials. Anyone who oppose original idea of developers must be ready to at least address the side effects of the change he propose. It will also help if you can assist your argument with numbers if needed.
• some suggestions introducing new concepts might be slightly off balance in terms of numbers. Try to the evaluate the concept first, and not rejecting just due to imbalanced numbers. If the concept is nice, try to propose correct numbers and support it with calculations if you can.
• The unit DPS chart at the end might be useful. It includes DPS/HP/EHP for basic units, as well as summons and towers.

Here are thoughts:

Wish list:

1. Avatar of vengeance no longer spell immune.
   Reason: if you compare this to other Doom guard summon (pit lord lvl 6): Doom is melee, vulnerable to magic, has more HP, guaranteed kill on a unit, but if cast on flyers, it can be denied by dying on water/trees. it only make sense to have ranged summon slightly worse, especially that it summons INVLUNERABLE spirits of vengeance. what makes sense, is that there has to be a weak spot, and that weak spot is to target their summoner avatar of vengeance, and then we make it magic immune????? makes no sense.
   Caution: if warden turned out to be too weak, numbers can be adjusted.
   alternative solution is to make summoned spirits ethereal, or dispellable. though I prefer the first one
2. Make Flying Units visible even if they are above trees. Other vision block mechanics should not be affected by this change.
   Reason:I kinda feel that flying units are OP, and having flying units harass the base and hide in the trees is annoying, particularly because units have 0.25 reaction time.
   I thought it was know in RTS world that maneuverable air units should be weaker than slower land units, but that wierdly does not apply in WC3
3. Why human Guard Towers still have heavy Armor type? its pathetic. the only race with useless defenses. Building farms in front help vs land creatures but matter not vs air, and they are even worse vs magic air dmg. I know everyone hates tower rush, but this is not the only way to fix tower rushes.
   For Example:
   Make Guard towers Fortified, with 200 HP. Each Masonry Upgrade gives +100 HP + 1 Armor. Now, tower rush can be stopped easily, and towers are also good late game. Scrapped the idea becuz this will have side effect on spells like FlameStrike, Blizz, RainOfFire.
   Or better yet same HP, but with -20 starting Armor for towers, +8 per upgrade. EHP was (650,325) vs all weapons except magic attacks, Now EHP vs (pierce, melee, siege) will be (835, 417, 194) at start, and (1033, 517, 250) after 1 masonary upgrade.
   
   in short, with this change, tower rush will be worse vs NormalAttackType but slightly better vs PierceAttackType, but HU will have the benefit to have an actual base defense later in the game, and meat wagons will be strong vs those towers as fitting and deserved.
   
   Here is a table to show compare EHP before and after this change is implemented.
   

   EHP Before change	EHP after Change
   (650/748/852/962) vs most attacks	(835/1030/1400/2300) vs Magic/pierce
   (325/374/426/481) vs magic attacks	(417/515/700/1150) vs Normal Melee attacks
   	(194/240/330/540) vs siege

   • also, why orc burrows have heavy and not medium armor? only reason I can think of is siege not being able to destroy them. we just need 5 more attack types and problem is solved. Now that fortified defense is at tier 2, orcs are never afraid of magic attacks
     
     Caution: if tower rush became too strong, it can be easily nerfed by requiring BlackSmith for GT or requring Masonary ugrd. Remember that arcane towers are not affected by this chang
4. Fix Channeling abilities:
   instead of make Tranquility give invulnerability for 3 seconds (1.29), better make it give magic immunity or an effect similar to amulet of spell shield. The real problem with channeling spells was that they are easily canceled with raider ensnare. Two possible fixes here: 1-) ensnare cant target heroes while they are channeling a spell (lazy fix) or 2-)make ensnare not cancel channeling ultimates (not sure if they should cancel regular channeling blizzard/Healing spray, but they should always cancel unit spells such as dragon hawk cloud or shackles). I am in favor of raiders never canceling hero spells (i.e. do not issue stop commands for heroes)
5. Far sight for thrall and summon owl for tyrande should be replaced with an actual ability (can still make them regular abilities like shadow meld):
   Reason: most heroes have 3 useful abilities, which adds to the variety of the game. Exceptions are BM's mostly ignore mirror image, Naga ignoring mana shield, and keeper ignoring thorns aura in early game (because early NE are not tanky). other than that, all other heroes occasionally use their unpopular abilities (DK use death pact lvl 4, paladin can go for devotion aura, Anub'arak can summon beetles).
6. MK Avatar no longer gives bonus damage. Instead, Mk has improved bash during avatar duration. Bash should last longer and do more damage.
7. Replace Magic Immunity with 80% spell resistance(Breakers, Dryads, Destroyers). Land units might need resistant skin in addition. However, because res.Skin reduce duration of Web/Ensnare, I am hesitant to add it for Destroyers.
   Reason: Mirror Spell immune is very boring; I'd rather make the game more appealing by introducing buffs/debuffs; it will make the game more interesting.
   Caution: HP/armor might need to be reviewed, Destroyers food cost might need to be changed, and aerial shackle hero duration might need to be reduced from 10 sec to 6 seconds, otherwise destroyers might become too weak.
   To serve the same purpose, land units might need Resistant Skin ability in addition to the 80% spell resistance. However, I do not think air units need it that much. Adding Resistant skin for air units might introduce undesired much shorter Web/Ensnare duration. If you think Destroyers will become too weak vs spells or DragonHawks, Remember that Destroyers can dispel themselves/alies, also remember that aerial shackle can be cancelled with DR silence as well as fiends web. I see no problem if destroyers are countered by DHR, just like most units should have a counter. The fact that there is counterplay for aerial shackle seem healthy for game imo. If resistant skin is given to flying units, then web must be buffed. However, ensnare will have to make due without a buff becuz it can affect heroes.
   Note: check out undead spell casters rework next, giving undead other kinds of dispel. I will accept Destroyers being countered by DH regardless if that change is implemented. and if undead are worried about mass slow or debuff, then they might want to flood enemy with skeletons.
8. Druid of the claws supply cost is increased to 5. To compensate for the nerf, morphing back to druid form cost no mana, but into bear form still cost 25. All bear damage nerfs might have to be reverted.
   Reason: If you check out DPS chart, you will see that Bear's DPS is already on par with Knights and abominations, and they have ok armor as well. However, they enjoy being multi-purpose unit as well. Increasing food cost by 25% came from roar spell increasing damage output by 25%. It seems good starting point for balance imo. Remember that, as principle, multi-purpose units should not be as good as specialized units. Aboms/knights specializing in Tanking/DPS should be better than bears in that regard.
9. Undead Spell casters Rework:
   Banshee AMS now applies dispel, just like abolish magic (needed in case destroyer earlier nerf made them too weak vs HU).
   Necromancers: I love necromancer unit and it's almost never seen.
   Here are some possible reworks:
   • Skeletal mage has abolish magic (but low mana pool)
   • skeletal mage has priest dispel (castable only once)
   • Necromancer sacrifices a skeleton to dispel units around it. (cost 30 mana)
   • summoning skeleton creates very tiny blight.
   • Commander of the Dead spell sets a target rally point where all skeletons auto attack-move right after summoned like barracks would (just quality of life and noob-friendly, skellies can still be microed by players). (included in my spellpack)
   • Different corpse=different skeleton AKA Enhanced Raise Dead (Different Corpse, Different Skeleton) this also include different corpses generated by meat wagon, and include possible lich ultimate rework (Enchant skeletons)
10. Orc Demolisher vs Meat Wagon:
    Give meat wagon armor upgrade and reduce their DPS. Remove armor upgrade from demolisher and increase their damage.
    Meat wagon now gains 3 armor per upgrade.
    Reason: Meat is multi-purpose unit. Currently it has more DPS than demolisher, which should never be the case. increasing the defense will help Necro wagon strategy. them dying too fast as currently is a reason why this strategy doesnt work.
    I am confused why demolisher DPS was nerfed in 1.10 and the reason why it had to be made worse than meat wagons? is it just becuz meat wagons have less HP? that doesnt justify imo. demolishers are worst DPS siege unit.
    objectively, strongest DPS should be either Glaive or mortars due to less HP and food. I think organic mortars must have less DPS than glaives.
    Here siege weapons DPS if you like to compare:
    
    
    
    https://www.hiveworkshop.com/data/ratory-images/186/186184-432d57699ac6081d02e2321934569fb6.png
11. Review duration values of silence (DarkRanger) and soul burn of FireLord
    Proposed values for Silence: 6/12/18, half duration on heroes 3/6/9
    Reason: as principle and from balance point of view, single target ability must have greater effect than multi target ability. This is true all across the board, including:
    • Holy Light heals more than healing wave and also better CD/manacost. why? becuz it is single target. if heal wave heals more then it is not balanced
    • storm bolt does more dmg/duration/cast range/manacost than TC Stomp. Why? becuz it is single target.
    • storm bolt also does more dmg to UD than holy light. Why? becuz storm bolt cannot heal. (sadly this feature got nerfed unjustly). if holy light did equal dmg with Bolt then it is not balanced becuz holy light has other features and better CD/Cost.
    • Therefore, soul burn should have longer duration than silence, and should also keep the other greater effects it has (dmg and dmg reduction). Why? becuz it is single target, and it can be dispelled on top of that. Silence can also be dispelled, but if dark ranger used it properly, the mages wont be able to dispel it. Soul burn is simply more easily countered than silence and therefore must be much stronger.
12. Blood Mage Mana siphon can target Mechanical units (obsedien statues). It should still not target buildings, or it should have much lesser effect against buildings, because buildings cannot move and so moonwells will become useless.
13. Blood Mage mana Siphon can now target any summoned units, Causing BM to gain mana while the summoned unit lose HP.
14. Replace orb of corruption with orb of darkness. Darkenss is bought from undead market, while corruption is droppable.
    Reason: undead is reliant on lich+other range unit to focus fire. To me, this makes undead quite boring to watch as the playstyle is usually the same. I would like to see other undead units used. Although orc also depend on BM damage output, BM is melee unit, and so other orc units are crucial for them to win battle. Undead on the other hand only require lich and DK.
15. improve CD for lvl3 entangle instead of improving duration; and improve CD summon quil beast.
    Reason: Later in the game, these abilities become less useful due to mass dispel/purge. Part of the reason why banish is more useful late game is due to no CD: BM can banish as long as he has more mana than enemy casters. While this unique feature should remain exclusive for BloodMage, I believe these two abilities could be slightly improved in this regard; improving CD but not totally remove it.
16. TC WarStomp Rework: If we compare this to MK clap:
    Clap increase radius and damage only, while the slow is 50% all the time. that leads me to think that a good way to balance this spell is the same: make it increase radius with constant stun of 3 seconds for units and 2 seconds for heros.
    Now, another way to balance it might be to make the stun increase while the radius is constant.
    
    
    Spoiler: Previous thoughts.

    Why is TC war stomp have huge radius (semilar to MK thunder clap before it got buffed).
    Reason: if anything, it seems to me that it should have smaller radius, because AOE stun is always better than AOE slow. this will not hurt TC+lightening shield combo, because lightening shield radius is already much smaller (160 compared to stomp 350). reducing stomp radius to 200/225/250 seems fine to me. the stomp area is actually so huge late game, its almost imba. I get it that MK have other stuns but TC also have other abilities and walks much faster than MK. I wouldn't want to reduce the stomp damage because it can serve as refund for the wasted TC animation.
17. Buff footman defend: make it work (less effectively) vs magic attacks/spells. e.g. defend will ignore magic bonus vs heavy armor (i.e. it will reduce magic damage by 50%; not spells)
    Reason: Footmen so bad late game. the only tier 1 unit which is never useful late game.
18. Gloves of Haste: improve from +15% AS to +20% attack speed.
    Reason: This Item seem much worse than Claws+5, while it is on the same level. Damage in general is much better than Attack speed due to attack-move-attack tactic. Taking this into consideration, attack speed items should provide slightly more DPS to compensate for lack of such tactic.
    Caution: Few heroes that benefit more from attack speed are MK, Tyrande, Naga, and FireLord. We have to keep an eye on that to make sure they do not turn out to be OP.
    
    
    Spoiler: Scrapped Ideas

    [*]Devour is now Hero ability (either for lich or for new Tavern Hero)
    Reason: free dispel is OP. In addition to that, fling units are also OP. it has to be limited somehow.
    I was always one of those who thought undead do not need dispel because they should overwhelm their enemies with summons instead.
    However, if undead really had to have a dispel, then perhaps add that to banshee anti magic shell? so AMS will work as abolish magic and then will provide the magic damage protection.
    [*]Serpent wards are no longer spell immune.
    Reason: its the only hero summon that cant be dispelled. HP and armor can be adjusted as necessary (can go to negative armor if needed)

Wish not list:

1. Mirror image doing damage for BladeMaster.
   we already know the problems that comes with it. We must either propose a solution or simply revert the change.
   • too much XP fed to enemy.
   • on top of that, when BM has low HP using this spell is even worse it buys little time and give XP even easier cuz illusion die too fast.
   • on top of that, hex, life drain and mana siphon insta kill illusions (I like the mechanic). in old version its fine they wasted a spell for a spell but in new version they gain insta xp even more easily than low HP bm.
   • we also know another problem of lvl 10 BM with OP illusions.
     
     Here are other proposed changes to solve the issue:
     
     
   • simply use the old iteration. It is already useful with lightening shield and for dispels.
   • use hybrid mechanic: we have 2 types of illusions, one that does dmg and give XP and the old one which does not. If BM use mirror while 70% HP then then illusion does dmg and give XP. if he used it below 40% then illusion does not. If he used it between 40-70% then each image is random between the two.
   • Blade master has sub ability to swap his position with his images at any time. cast range is not global otherwise it might be as good as mass teleport. is image destroyed after swap or not is yet to be decided [suggestion by a fellow]
2. Trolls buff at 1.30:
   Reason: every unit should have strengths and weaknesses, and while I agree that units with less food should be slightly more efficient, it should not be too much. lets look at str and weakness of all range units before that patch and compare them after:
   

   unit	Weakness	Strength	Identical traits
   Archers	Fragile with lowest HP	Highest normalized DPS/Food has dmg and range upgrade on top of that.	size of 32
   Nerubs	Too slow projectile	attack is never disjointed (from fast movement/staff/blinks) has very good upgd of web/invis	=
   Head Hunters	lower than average range	fairly tanky good damge (not dps) which makes attack move/kiting very good	=
   Riflemen	Loses to all other ranged units lowest range	instant projectile	=

   • 
     but now after the buff, their range is on par with fiends, and their HP is much better than footies. on principle, melee units should be tanky than ranged units. raiders/grunts are more thanky than fiends/rifles/huntresses. It should be same for footmen vs archers/HH. Old berseker HP was more acceptable, and if its needed to buff them, then increase dmg while decrease attack speed
     Here is picture of ranged DPS comparison
     
     
     
     on the other hand, LongRifles upgrade is not that amazing. You would think that an upgrade would make unit better than its peers at something.
   • Defend makes footmen so tanky vs pierce, maybe even better than knights
   • Marksmanship makes archer DPS even stronger (though they are already strongest range DPS)
   • Grunt berserker upg covers their weakness: with this upg they have same dps as footies (grunts are tanky but have less DPS before this ugr)
   • ghoul frenzy gives them maneuverability.
   • Long rifles on the other hand, increase attack range from worst range of 400 to 600 just above average 550 for fiends/HH. it is meaningless upg. It should either be removed or HH range should be reduced or Long rifles range should be increased. The ugr has to have meaning and not simply bring unit up to an average lvl. it's just not good design
3. I wish LVL1 evasion was kept at 15% to make it comparable to Critical strike. other evasion levels are fine in terms of EHP compared to crit. As much as numbers seem nicer and closer to crit with this wish, I am afraid it might give DemonHunter too strong early game. He already has moonwells advantage and balanced numbers arent always nice. Retracted.
4. I wish warsong battle drum still gave command aura.
   Reason: there doesnt seem to be any item drop which makes some units mostly useless. one important aspect of the kodo beast is the aura, and it will be denied if the item is taken, pushing the orcs to sell this item. compared to other aura dropped, if one race gets unfavourable aura item drop, he can still play around it in two ways: either not train the hero which has the aura, or get the hero but opt for other skill build. so the hero is still nearly fully utilized up until lvl 7, which most of games do not reach. on the other hand, orcs now have no way to play around this item drop. This IS probably why the original designers decided to change the aura for the item to be command aura, Despite the item name fitting the drums aura, and despite this so called consistancy issue raised in the new updates; they probably knew exactly about it, and still decided against it for balance reasons. 1.31 changelog said "Dev comment: This is currently the only aura item that stacks with a similar aura from one of the playable races. This is a slight nerf to Orc, but it does make the aura items overall more unified and operate without exceptions." the devs forgot that this is the only aura provided by a unit and not by a hero, which is why it HAD to be an exception.
5. I wish BM storm still blocks ensnare.
   Reason: the BM is clearly moving very fast that the raiders net have no chance to catch him. if anything, its the ensnare should block the storm usage, but once its used, it should no longer affect the BM. I blv the original WC3 designers had the right idea.
6. NE archer health being nerfed down to 245.
   Reason: I get it that this is because archers were kinda OP, but this could have been fixed in some other ways, for e.g. making archers start with -6 armor, making them bad in combat HP, but not very vulnerable to nukes. and then their HP is buffed to 300-ish again. NVM this wouldnt change anything much actually, only making moonwell heals worse for archers. well, at least it could be 275 HP and thats enough nerf, 245 is over kill. This change is reverted and no longer relevant.

Confused list:

1. Healing wave & spirit link for human:
   Human HP is much lower than orcs. it seems to me that from balance point of view, orcs like holy light more, and humans like to have spirit link+healing wave more than orcs, because human units can be easily focused, and can bearly tank even with spirit link. orc units on the other hand can easily tank spell damage even without spirit link (and the meta has shifted slightly away from spirit walkers it seems, orcs can do just fine without spirit link). Humans with priest+spirit link and healing wave/healing spray seems good. maybe imba?
2. How should lich be balanced?
   many people complain about OP coil nova, but I also think dark ritual deny plays a role on why UD are strong. Though what is the correct way to balance it? I could not decide which of the following is more reasonable:
   • should dark ritual only be usable on High HP units? to prevent red HP deny? (say 80 HP min). NVM this change is completely wrong. HU and NE can already "Deny" creeps with staff, UD deny is even worse. If this needs any change, it might be to review the CoolDown of the ability.
   • or should the Nova dmg be nerfed? something like: keep AOE dmg same but nerf the primary target? I propose these numbers if this is needed:
     Primary Target Damage: 100/75/50.
   • or should Nova duration be nerfed to a constant 5/3? currently it has no downtime vs units lasts 8 sec same as CD. It certainly helps to compare this with Clap/Stomp as they are the other 2 AOE spells, keeping in mind that nova has much longer cast range and should therefore be slightly worse than them in some aspect at least becuz it is not very risky for lich.
3. Unit Regeneration of 0.25HP/sec for units and 2 for undead:
   why is this number chosen? I have never noticed that passive regeneration made any impact except 2 cases:
   • UD sending ghouls back to base seem to be effective
   • Peasants/Militia/Peons regen, as harmed peasants are not engaged in combat.
   • but other units do not seem benefit that much from sending units back.
     Should we experiment with increasing regen? although this will make Healers less important. I am inclined to double regeneration but I have doubts and I cannot justify any specific balanced number.
4. Heavy armor vs Medium Armor: medium armor seems OP. Frost Wyrms and griffins seem OP vs tourens/knights. I kinda want to nerf magic attacks to 1.5; but that will also nerf sorcs/shamans and witch doctors vs heavy armor. Perhaps we need new attack type for these flying creatures instead?
5. Why magic training no longer gives bonus Damage for spell casters in TFT? it seemed nice addition. is it really broken? will casters be imba?
6. Wind riders have 570 HP, much less than other flyers? is it because they have piercing attacks, which makes them kinda hard counters for all other flyers? wind vs other flyers seem balanced considering armor types, (but hyppogryph rider will imba in that regard)
7. There is something very wrong with Night Elven Archers rebalance. Archers HP is always tweaked but Grace pierce damage reduction is never changed.
   
   How it should be:
   • If archers are OP vs melee, reduce HP, increase grace ability.
   • If archers too OP vs ranged but too weak vs melee, increase HP, reduce grace ability.
   • If archers too weak vs spells, increase magic resistance.
   if we cant answer these questions we cant balance archers correctly.
   
   Just changing HP while keeping grace constant is not always good.
   TBH though, it will be much easier if the game has choosen that each unit has different resistance just like BatteForWesnoth, with 6 types of attacks.

Perfect Balance changes:

1. Bm ww 2 sec CD AFTER BM is revealed
2. Blink CD rebalance: that ablity was OP.
3. ring of protection and evasion
4. Now with Frost Armor on hit duration scales 3/5/7 my previous idea is no longer needed now gives 0/3/7.
   Reason: to make the ability scale. currently, the jump from lvl 1 to 2 is almost nothing, making it almost not worth to upgrade the ability.
5. Attack upgrades and Armor upgrades give about 12% increase in DPS/EHP for most land units. I was astonished to understand this fact. It seems the original designers thought numbers very well. Notable exceptions are knights. However, even in this case values are similar, and if you take RoC armor value of 6, it would have been identical improvemnt by 8.82% in both DPS/EHP. Take a look at the picture below:
   
   
6. LVL3 Crit and evasion passives also follow similar values. while crit3 increase DPS by 45%, evasion increase EHP by 43%. Imo it would be even closer to perfection if evasion is buffed to 33% to give 50% EHP becuz offense is usually more useful than defense, but this was probably due to NE having Moonwell advantage.
7. Similar improvements are not limited to upgrades and passives. Even regular abilities, if compared, give similar overall bonus. Here is a table to show that:
   

   Ability	Talon Faerie Fire -4	Talon Faerie Fire -5	Priest Inner Fire	Shaman Blood Lust	Banshee Curse 33%	Banshee Curse 25%	Sorc Slow 25%
   Bonus	24%-ish EHP +vision	30%-ish EHP +vision	30% EHP +10% damage	40% Attack speed / 25% MS	50% EHP	33% EHP	33%EHP 55% MS
   Total Bonus	24+	30%+	40%	40%+	50%	33%	Varies about 25-33% EHP

8. Devoution Aura slight Buff:
   now that devoution aura is buffed to 5 armor, increasing EHP by 30% to be on par with TrueShot Aura seem to be closer to perfection. Here are points to note both for and against this change.
   • original devotion aura gave 27% EHP increase. Developers prolly thought it must be slightly worse than TrueShot becuz it benefits all units, not just ranged, so it had to be slightly worse.
   • Notice that TrueShot aura is stronger with upgrades, while devotion aura is the same.
   • Armor does not work vs spells, is one of the main reasons why offense is better than defense, and why attack upgrades are preferred by most players. Max devotion+armor upgrd wont save your Riflemen from Death Coil Nova
   • devotion aura might need another buff to +6
9. Immolation DPS change is near perfect, even though many complain about it (im HU player btw)
   Reason: to know if ability is strong or not, then we must compare to other abilities.
   
   

   Level	Thunder Clap DPS vs 12.85 mana cost per second	immolation PTR2 vs 7 Mana	immolation PTR1 vs 8 Mana	immolation 1.35 vs 6 Mana	immolation 1.34 vs 7 mana
   1	8.6	12	13	16	10
   2	15.7	24	20	24	15
   3	21.4	36	32	36	20

Although numbers seem to be in favor of new immolation, you should note that:

• immolation has only 160 AOE, while ThunderClap has (300/350/400)
• immolation requires demon hunter to tank damage and be in the front line, while thunder can hit and run.
• immolation does not slow
• if you think DH is imbalanced, consider blaming his other abilities, and not immolation.

and if you took these points into consideration, you have to aknowledge that old immolation was much worse than ThunderClap becuz it did less damage in addition to all these mentioned points. it is just the objective choice that immolation must have more dmg than clap, just like clap must have more damage than TC stomp (slow is worse than stun)

@Shar Dundred @Norris @Cleclejossstone @morbent @RED BARON

 

[RED BARON]

I mean, is this a wishlist for the old or the new one?

 

[Map Designer]

I mean, is this a wishlist for the old or the new one?

you mean for 1.26 or for 1.32 version of warcraft?

its what you would like to see in melee games and find it balanced, regardless of your version I guess.

 

[RED BARON]

you mean for 1.26 or for 1.32 version of warcraft?

its what you would like to see in melee games and find it balanced, regardless of your version I guess.

I mean, is this for Warcraft III or Reforged, which to me makes a massive difference, even more so with the differences between Frozen Throne and Reign of Chaos.

At any rate, assuming this was the original, I do wish they could somehow make boats more balanced. Also I like your Confused list, point 1 and wish list point 4. Generally I am in favor of most things that species up strategies and opens up for a very varied amount of builds - even if not necessarily constantly in perfect balance, but instead allowing for a state of flux.

As an odd example:
While I know it is an old thing, just the fact that a Blademaster rush could work has always struck me as annoying, while the Photon cannon rush in Starcraft was fun. I guess it is the difference in commitment and the ease of negation, if that makes any sense.

As a side note, your wish not list, is also a wishlist - but in regards to things that was changed, which should not have been?

 

[Map Designer]

I like your Confused list

hmmm, I thought about it again. humans can always hire alchemist for spread healing; seems better than paladin heal. though they cant always get spirit link

As a side note, your wish not list, is also a wishlist - but in regards to things that was changed, which should not have been?

Exactly. things that originally more fitting and more balanced, but turned broken due to that change.
things that were orignally well thought but were changed by an unthought idea.
even though this thread is supposed to be about balance, you can think of game sense and what not, the the BM with blade storm and being ensnared. any change in this is more or less balanced because this only affects orc vs orc mirror, but it just adds up that BM blade storm cannot be ensnared. he is too fast for it.

Wish not list: put what you wish never happened (not the ones you wish will never happen, becuz there are infinite ways to screw the balance that no one wishes)

 

[Map Designer]

Alright, so I gave the Tauren Cheiftan stomp a little more thought.


the reason why the ability is imbalanced compared to MK Thunder Clap is because War Stomp scales in all fields: Damage, Radius, and DURATION. if compared to MK, Thunder Clap has no duration scaling.

there are many ways this could be rebalanced, and the most reasonable one imo is to make War Stomp Duration constant, only radius and damage increase with levels. that way it will be easily compared to MK.

@deepstrasz @Ender Wiggins @Aggiba @pussycat what do you think? and what is your wish list?

 

[Aggiba]

Wish
1. Unholy Frenzy effect on heroes should be 75% AS too, like it does on non-heroes.
2. Meat Wagon and Glaive Throwers should be affected by armor upgrades.
3. Ancestral Spirit mana cost should be reduced(to 200 maybe because 250 is very much disadvantageous to SW's)
4. Abominations should have lesser collision size and quicker turn rate, it is the unit that deals the heaviest normal damage from the UD army yet it a group of aboms can't focus on a single unit due to their stupidly large collision size and slow turn rate
5. There should be a neutral building where players can hire strong creeps (aside from the dragons since they're just physically op but skill-wise they're not game-changing). A building where we can hire e.g. Faceless One Terror/Deathbringer, Magnataur Reaver/Destroyer, Storm Wyrms
6. A tome or maybe a charged item that refreshes ability cooldown, a level 8 item drop for red camps, that are present in large FFA maps since battles never end in FFA
7. Demon Hunter's immolation should stack with cloak of flames. It's unfair for DH for fighting orange camps and get an utterly useless reward.
8. Unloaded transportation(e.g. zeppelin) should move faster, and when loaded they move slower.
9. Chimaera attacks shouldn't affect your own units.

Wish not
1. Ancestral spirit should always break food limit, updates stopped it from doing so
2. Gryphon Aviary techtree requirement should be Castle & Lumber Mill like it used to. Now it requires Keep & Lumber Mill, and you'll just train gryphon when castle's done, unlike tauren, chims, and frost wyrms while they have long training times
3. Archer hp should at least exceed 250, because they always get nuked and ravaged

(About nerfing TC, I gave it a thought. In early levels, MK is a lot better since he can 1st/3rd/1st/3rd skill build. While a low lvl TC can't do much, short ranged stun and slow MS. I think TC will bear the fruits of the AOE in his high levels so it's just fine)

 

[pussycat]

I have only one wish for those fools who made wc3 reforged, i wish them all burn in hell in peace

 

[Map Designer]

1. Unholy Frenzy effect on heroes should be 75% AS too, like it does on non-heroes.

I never knew about that. its not stated in any changelog i've seen. its also not mentioned in Necromancer or Necromancer (Warcraft III)

2. Meat Wagon and Glaive Throwers should be affected by armor upgrades.

I can understand why you want that for glaives, but why the meat wagons? meat wagons are by far the best siege weapon because it has additional skeleton ability. that thing is fine as is. making corpse on top of being siege weapon is no joke. If you make it as powerful then it will be straight up better than other siege weapons.

anyway, have you looked at the numbers? hang on let me pull my spread sheet.

Spoiler: Compare

as you can see, Meat Wagon Has greatest DPS and its even better than Orc Demolishers (after they got nerfed). though before the nerf demolisher got slightly better DPS (46 compared to 44 of meat wagons)

Ancestral Spirit mana cost should be reduced(to 200 maybe because 250 is very much disadvantageous to SW's)

hmmm, not sure. that ability seem strong to me. though 200 should be fine too. if I was doing the balance, I would reduce it step by step 225 and then if its still abysmal i'd go for 200, but not in one go, just to be sure things go smoothely balance isn't broken.

Abominations should have lesser collision size and quicker turn rate, it is the unit that deals the heaviest normal damage from the UD army yet it a group of aboms can't focus on a single unit due to their stupidly large collision size and slow turn rate

what you say may be right. though they have same size as Touren. their abilities are better than nights but worse than Tourens; thats only natural because tourens are more expensive and cost more food. I always thought cannabalize was good but no one seem to like that ability. I guess its because it wastes a lot of time.

As for Turn rate, you made valid point. Turn rate make sense since aboms are clumsy and if they move too quickly might fall apart but thats is not a balance reason so your point still stands.

now for collision size: I think whole collision size mechanics should be rethought. Footman has less collision than NE archer?!! if aboms Collision Size was reduced from 48 to 32 he will be as big as NE archer!! Currently Human Night and NE Bear Form are also as big as NE archer LOL. I guess archer had to have larger size because otherwise it will be OP because archer will come very close to each other and have very strong fire power

A tome or maybe a charged item that refreshes ability cooldown, a level 8 item drop for red camps, that are present in large FFA maps since battles never end in FFA

hmm, there arent that many lvl 8 items. its hard to compare. I dont see any charged lvl 8 in my editor, so this will be the only item. The idea may be good, but there needs to be other items too; otherwise, this will make heroes with longer CD naturally benifit more from this item.
Blood mage has 0 CD for banish, its only double flame strike thats good. paladin shield might be imba if its not charged. MK avatar, DH meta, and TC reincarnate will also be imba.

the item might be fine if he only if it does not reset ultimate CD's

Demon Hunter's immolation should stack with cloak of flames. It's unfair for DH for fighting orange camps and get an utterly useless reward.

you can give it to your other melee hero (panda). It is more important to complain about Aura items than this item imo, because auras do not stack.
though I have Question regarding this: if panda and DH are both standing next to an enemy unit, would it the damage stack? I think not but I haven't tested.

8. Unloaded transportation(e.g. zeppelin) should move faster, and when loaded they move slower.

this would be cool

9. Chimaera attacks shouldn't affect your own units.

hmmm, maybe that would make them cost 6 food instead then. Frost wyrms do not attack allies too iirc.

2. Gryphon Aviary techtree requirement should be Castle & Lumber Mill like it used to. Now it requires Keep & Lumber Mill, and you'll just train gryphon when castle's done, unlike tauren, chims, and frost wyrms while they have long training times

You haven't mentioned the Dragon Hawk Riders, which is the reason why this update came into place to begin with. also, from 1.30 patch notes

• Tech Tree
  • Now unlocks with Stronghold instead of Fortress

and so tourens and gryphons are the same in this sense.

3. Archer hp should at least exceed 250, because they always get nuked and ravaged

this one is actually pretty hard if you think about it; that is why I canceled my wish. Currently archer HP is 260: are you satisfied with that?

 

[Aggiba]

i'm using 1.27 so i don't know much about 1.30 and up

 

[Ralle]

Open.

 

[Map Designer]

I will add these to OP Insha Allah

Avatar of vengeance no longer spell immune.

Spoiler: Added these to OP

1. Alternative to this will be to make spirits of vengeance ethereal instead.
2. Devour is now Hero ability (either lich or Tavern): reason: free dispel is OP. it has to be limited somehow.
3. Frost armor now gives 0/3/7; Reason: to make the ability scale. currently, the jump from lvl 1 to 2 is almost nothing.
4. serpent wards are no longer spell immune: Reason: its the only hero summon that cant be dispelled. HP and armor can be adjusted as necessary (can go to negative armor if needed)
5. Raise dead creates tiny blight.
6. Replace orb of corruption with orb of darkness. Darkenss is bought from undead market, while corruption is droppable.
   Reason: undead is reliant on lich+other range unit to focus fire. To me, this makes undead quite boring to watch as the playstyle is usually the same. I would like to see other undead units used. Although orc also depend on BM damage output, BM is melee unit, and so other orc units are crucial for them to win battle. Undead on the other hand only require lich and DK.
7. When close to a friendly tree of life, if wisp detonates, he summons one treant for 45-ish seconds.

[*]and heavy armor to confused list