• 🏆 Texturing Contest #33 is OPEN! Contestants must re-texture a SD unit model found in-game (Warcraft 3 Classic), recreating the unit into a peaceful NPC version. 🔗Click here to enter!
  • 🏆 Hive's 6th HD Modeling Contest: Mechanical is now open! Design and model a mechanical creature, mechanized animal, a futuristic robotic being, or anything else your imagination can tinker with! 📅 Submissions close on June 30, 2024. Don't miss this opportunity to let your creativity shine! Enter now and show us your mechanical masterpiece! 🔗 Click here to enter!

How to give credit to unknown people?

Status
Not open for further replies.
Level 4
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
58
I am personally a fan of the icons from the MMO Guild Wars, but I've always been a bit hesitant to include them in any of the games I make because it seems slightly plageristic, and I don't know who actually created the icon. Anyone know how/who to give credit? Thanks for the help.
-NS
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
I am personally a fan of the icons from the MMO Guild Wars, but I've always been a bit hesitant to include them in any of the games I make because it seems slightly plageristic, and I don't know who actually created the icon. Anyone know how/who to give credit? Thanks for the help.
-NS

I would assume this falls under the same category as ripped models, but I don't know for sure.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
I disagree with preaching your personal morality Griffen. I consider myself a fairly moral person, and don't see anything "wrong" with it, but it is still against the conservative spirit of HiveWorkshop and not terribly creative, (unless you're making a guild wars map, in which case I say go ahead, but don't talk about it on the hive or upload it here or ask about it here unless you want to get bitched at by preachies).
 
In my opinion, more people should understand something called rights.

There is Posting Rights, Creator's Rights, Wearing Rights, Full Rights, and Learning Rights.

Unless you have Posting Rights or Full Rights, you can't use them. Unless the makers of Guild Wars give them out for people to use, then you can't use it, or at least shouldn't.
http://www.gamerenders.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=371899&st=0&start=0

I know that link mainly applies for signature/LP rights in an auction, but it also applies for any general artwork.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
Alright, I won't question the legality of it. I generally ignore copyright law for noncommercial purposes (aside from havingthe decency not to claim others work as my own and give credit), but that's my personal issue I guess as I don't consider said law to be important.

I understand rights, but my personal morals don't overlap with the legal borders on this one.

Same with others using my work.

If its non-commercial, and you don't claim it as your own and you give me credit for it, I don't give a rats ass.

but to the OP. See what I mean? mention copyrighted materials on the hive and you get choked to death with a bible of copyright infringement by everyone but me (and the one mod who said he had nothing against WoW models).

I think it would be nice if the next time this happened instead of preaching someone just said copyrighted materials aren't allowed on Hive and won't be discussed here, and left it at that.

Of course, nobody will do that. I just feel like I'm surrounded by Jehovahs witnesses here sometimes.
 
Level 34
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
8,873
If yo use images for your own use like a desktop, is it legal? Or is that why all games release backgrounds? Because they are for the public, unlike the other images.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
If yo use images for your own use like a desktop, is it legal? Or is that why all games release backgrounds? Because they are for the public, unlike the other images.

I don't know if its technically legal, but I do know that it's private enough that even if it were NOT legal, nobody would give a rats ass. I Imagine not even PurgeandFire111 of Captain Griffen.

I imagine on some technical level even fanart is less than legal, as you don't own the characters. [Edit] Looked it up. It's grey area. you own the art but its derivative work, so it all depends on whats done with the art. Sometimes people can be sued, but who will win depends primarily on the use of the fanart
 
Level 34
Joined
Sep 6, 2006
Messages
8,873
We aren't talking about whether or not you or anyone gives a rats ass. Were discussing what is legal and not legal.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
Ok Gilles, I looked it up. And of couse, whether or not it's legal depends on Which country you come from. In The States (where I shall assume you to be from) it depends on the rights given by the creator. If they give free rights to use it then it's fair use, otherwise you have to consult the "four factor balancing test" Here's an example. So, Assuming you are american, and assuming they didn't put it up FOR you to use as a wallpaper, it's a big huge chunk of grey area where it could be anything from total innocence to a bigass lawsuit, and it depends wholly on the ruling of a judge, and they are on a case by case basis so you don't know if it will be considered fair use or not until you get there and a judge rule on it. In the united states there are small differences in the rules dependant on state from what I saw too, but the wikipedia page is just a general overview of it.

As it's such grey area, whether you like it or not, in this case it really would come down to "do they give a rats ass". Is it worth them trying to get money out of you? If they won the money, is there any chance of you ever being able the pay the money? (which could be up to 150000 for 1 use) What are the odds the judge will award that money to them based on past rulings? What it comes down to, is would they care enough if you used it to try to sue you? From what I gathr, that's how most american copyright works, as what is or is not fair use is not well defined beyond looking at similar past examples.
 
Level 7
Joined
Apr 23, 2007
Messages
326
well technically if you use a program like snag-it to copy images out of anything its illegal but if you make a few minor changes its not illegal

in any case NightSong you could do what i said above and credit the Guild Wars team for inspiring the icons
 
Lol, dark, you are acting like I really deeply care about rights. :p

Desktop, it is fine. As long as you don't say you made it. Besides, no one would give a chicken's ass.

Meh, claiming rights for general art is really really bad to do but I guess using some images etc. for icons isn't so bad. As long as you aren't selling it, wearing it, or commercializing it. It is just between you and the map. ;)
 
Level 4
Joined
Feb 25, 2008
Messages
58
Well... the only thing is that the GW website has all the icons on it.. so it's basically there for the public. I don't know if that makes a difference though. And you're right, it's not lot I'm taking credit for the icons, I just think they look cool.
-NS
 
Level 14
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,156
Nightsong - that makes no difference unless they explicitly give you the rights to use and distribute them.

Darkholme, people do care. And those people are the people with morals. It's all about respecting other people's property. That's important, and obviously you don't care about other people's rights at all. Hence you deserve none yourself - I shall feel at liberty to steal any work you make. And no, I won't give credit, but I don't feel that I morally have to.

Harsh? Yes. So buck up and learn that rights DON'T just apply to you - they apply to everyone. They are there for a reason, and they apply to you even if you don't agree with them.
 
Level 14
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
1,133
Ok guys, its not any of our business to tell him its illegal or he should stop using them, as long as it doesn't cause the hive trouble no one should care what he uses, if he gets in trouble he gets in trouble alone. Honestly i think you should try and request someone to redraw the ones you're using so it'll stop you from leading you're self to trouble but if you honestly want to use the icons, gives credit to the company that produced guildwars.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
Darkholme, people do care. And those people are the people with morals. It's all about respecting other people's property. That's important, and obviously you don't care about other people's rights at all. Hence you deserve none yourself - I shall feel at liberty to steal any work you make. And no, I won't give credit, but I don't feel that I morally have to.
Naw, you're just talking about being an ass. I'm not saying don't give credit where credit is due, I'm saying if you use something, permission or no, give them credit. If it comes from a professional source, and you're not making money off of it, you should give credit, but I'm saying nobody would get upset about if he used them while giving credit. The company that owns guild wars wouldn't try to sue him, he's not making any money, hell it might even be free advertising for their product. And he's not claiming the icons to be his work, he's giving them credit. If I make something, and you use it, give credit, but I'm not going to demand permission be asked every time. That's absurd. If that were the case I'd just horde it all to myself and make sure it never sees bnet ot hive. seriously.

We're not discussing the difference between having no morals and having morals as you imply, we're discussing one particular difference in morals. I would never intentionally use someone else's work without giving them credit for it, but at the same time I probably wouldn't ask permission, not when I know the answer just won't come. If I do ask permission to use a model, instead of just using it and giving credit, then its a courtesy to them, likely because I have prsonal respect for that person. If they're anonymous or I think they're rude and unpleasant to talk to, I'm much more likely to use it and then give credits. It's a bit like the saying "Often it's easier to ask forgiveness than permission". That doesn't always alpply but it does in this case

People have emailed companies asking about it. One is in the WoW models forum, hell I emailed blizzard too! they just give a generic response that doesn't answer your question at all. They don't say no, they don't say yes.

-----
Edit
-----
And I wouldn't be that upset if someone used something I made in a larger project without giving credits. If they explicitly claimed it as their own I'd be pissed, but if I was unnamed for a model in a big project I wouldn't be. The only type of theft on this subject that would really piss me off would be when people steal a map, make one little change and submit it as their own. They aren't making derivative work with it, it's not being used in some bigger project, and they aren't just not naming a resource they borrowed, they're actively claiming they made it. That's a different scenario. If I had something professionally published (like a model, or icon) and someone used it in a fan-project without my consent, but they used an icon or a model or a bunch of them, and actually did something relatively creative, I wouldn't be angry, I'd be flattered. My game has been published, people already know who made it/ owns it, so if someone makes something new based on/using my work when people know its mine that's a compliment.

-----
Edit 2
-----
I should note that all of these opinions on how to conduct oneself only apply for non commercial, non-profit use. If someone makes a profit by using my work, that's different than if its something free or if his free something is like advertising for my work. In the case of a For-Profit use of my work, more than just credit is required, as I'll expect a percentage of the cash based on what he used. If he doesn't give me that percentage initially I'll likely sue him for it+more for the hassle of having to sue him. As I have pointed out time and time again it totally depends on whether its for profit or not.

-----
Edit 3
-----
Following the concept I explained here, use of other people's materials would not be illegal in the united states in most cases even on a technical level, as it would often fall under fair use.
 
Last edited:
Level 14
Joined
Aug 25, 2005
Messages
1,133
True, but if he's actually making a guild wars themed map it would likely be better to use the guild wars icons.

Yeah, i suppose. Where also going off topic by some what and the admins probably won't like that much.

So the end of the story is give credits to the company whom made Guild Wars, Or find some better icons or have someone make the icons that you need to trap any chance of getting in trouble.

But honestly what i highly suggest is find you're self a cool little free photo editing program like gimp and find a tutorial so you can teach you're self to make icons, Because honestly it gives a lot more freedom being able to make you're own icons and etc.

And we do have a debate forum for whom who still feel strongly towards whats right so you can probably keep the legal or illegal debate going in "Medivh's Tower" if you still would like to talk more about this subject.

Alright guys everyone have a nice Sunday.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
Depending on how you use without permission it can fall under fair use. In which case it's legal AND moral according to US laws. (which is the standpoint everyone seems to be going from). Please refrain from insulting me. I'm not insulting you and I'd appreciate the same in return. This is not an issue we're going to ever agree on in a generalization, perhaps in specific situations we may agree. So lets just drop the subject.

-----
Edit
-----
Also, this is entirely theoretical, as I don't actually have a need for any ripped models/skins/buttons, and have not had a need for them up to this point.
 
Last edited:

Dr Super Good

Spell Reviewer
Level 64
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
Messages
27,232
As this is WC3, you should be allowed to freely copy anyones ideas with no problem what so ever. However, for kindness sake, I recomend you say where you got the idea from (the game name or what ever) to act as a kind of free promotion for the game and so that propper credits for the idea can be found in that game. This only applies if you use names that are copyrighted.

If you are using mechanics that were inspired from games, then no credits need be given, as the game makers did not code them for WC3, you did.

You can not use any material from a game like models or skins without the companies permission (which you wont get for free) as those are heavilly copyrighted recources and giving credit is not enough to use them.

If you use material made by other WC3 users like models, icons or triggers then you simply have to list their account name unless they specify otherwise.
 
Level 14
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,156
Depending on how you use without permission it can fall under fair use. In which case it's legal AND moral according to US laws. (which is the standpoint everyone seems to be going from). Please refrain from insulting me. I'm not insulting you and I'd appreciate the same in return. This is not an issue we're going to ever agree on in a generalization, perhaps in specific situations we may agree. So lets just drop the subject.

-----
Edit
-----
Also, this is entirely theoretical, as I don't actually have a need for any ripped models/skins/buttons, and have not had a need for them up to this point.

Distribution for mods doesn't fall under fair usage.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
Distribution for mods doesn't fall under fair usage.

just handing out the models doesn't, I was referring to the use of a model in a mod.

Here's an example

Factors
Purpose and Character said:
The first factor is about whether the use in question helps fulfill the intention of copyright law to stimulate creativity for the enrichment of the general public, or whether it aims to only "supersede the objects" of the original for reasons of personal profit. To justify the use as fair, one must demonstrate how it either advances knowledge or the progress of the arts through the addition of something new. A key consideration is the extent to which the use is interpreted as transformative, as opposed to merely derivative.
Is there anything original about it, or is the whole project merely a copy of the source of its used resources without any innovation?
If your map is not just a copy of something from the game(s) in question and actually has original ideas and work put into it then you meet this one.

Nature of the copied work said:
Although the Supreme Court of the United States has ruled that the availability of copyright protection should not depend on the artistic quality or merit of a work, fair use analyses consider certain aspects of the work to be relevant, such as whether it is fictional or non-fictional.
Is it a work of fiction or is it facts that should be public domain - in this case it would never be facts, as it's not a concept that's being discussed.
This one can only be met by concepts that apply to everyday life, so product things will never meet this.

Amount and substantiality said:
The third factor assesses the quantity or percentage of the original copyrighted work that has been imported into the new work. In general, the less that is used in relation to the whole, e.g., a few sentences of a text for a book review, the more likely that the sample will be considered fair use. Yet see Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios for a case in which substantial copying—entire programs for private viewing—was upheld as fair use. Likewise, see Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation,where the Ninth Circuit held that copying an entire photo to use as a thumbnail in online search results did not weigh against fair use, "if the secondary user only copies as much as is necessary for his or her intended use." Conversely, in Harper & Row, Publishers, Inc. v. Nation Enters,[11] the use of less than 400 words from President Ford's memoir by a political opinion magazine was interpreted as infringement because those few words represented "the heart of the book" and were, as such, substantial.
How much of the original game did you use in your map and how much of your map is the original game?
Did you rip out all of the models/icons/whatever from the game? Are all the models/icons/whatever that you used ripped from the game? This one is a matter of quantity

Effect upon work's value said:
The fourth factor measures the effect that the allegedly infringing use has had on the copyright owner's ability to exploit his original work. The court not only investigates whether the defendant's specific use of the work has significantly harmed the copyright owner's market, but also whether such uses in general, if widespread, would harm the potential market of the original. The burden of proof here rests on the defendant for commercial uses, but on the copyright owner for noncommercial uses. See Sony Corp. v. Universal City Studios,[14] where the copyright owner, Universal, failed to provide any empirical evidence that the use of Betamax had either reduced their viewership or negatively impacted their business.
How does your map effect the original product's profits?
In 99% of all cases, a warcraft 3 map will have 0 negative impact on the profits of the original game, and the onus is on them to prove it if it supposedly does.

So while just handing out models and such doesn't ever meet fair use, using them in a project totally has that possibility.

If you still disagree with me I don't really care, I have quotes to back myself up, that's enough for me. They come from the wikipedia fair use article, not the government page, but until someone shows me a govt page that contradicts it I'll accept it as correct.
 
Level 15
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
2,174
If you ask me your map will get acepted but only on epic war. Because taking icons from a screenshot from a game for public is ilegal. As much as I am for that kind of icon getting its still a law. And I dont think that hive staff will approve your map cause those icons.

Huh but who could know this but us hivers. Ask someone to make you icons. I can but not so good ones.
 
Level 14
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,156
just handing out the models doesn't, I was referring to the use of a model in a mod.

I'm curious....how are you going to use them in a mod if you don't distribute them? (Project Revolution avoided this by requiring the SC CD).

What you fail to realise with all your quotes is that fair use implies there is a real reason behind the usage. If there isn't, it can't possibly fall under fair usage.

The only reason behind ripping materials - which is breach of contract on your part - is sheer laziness or lack of creative capabilities, requiring a free loading. Alternatively, a desire to emulate one game in another, but arguing that is like shooting yourself in the foot.
 
Level 17
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Messages
1,029
you don't distribute them as resources unto themselves, only as a small part of a larger project. If people rip them from your map then they're responsible for if they don't use them according to fair use.

You don't have to be emulating a game perfectly. perhaps you're making an original project which draws from another game and uses the same theme. So though it may use a,b, and c from game Z, d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l are all original ideas you are adding to it. This would be the scenario where it could fall under fair use.

If he's making a guild wars map but adding a large number of innovative things, then it could fall under fair use. If he's just trying to get an accurate representation of guild wars, or a dumbed down guild wars, then it wouldn't under the first section. If it is free advertising and doesn't hurt the owners of the original that can also make it fall under fair use. The point I'm making is that there are situations where fair use WOULD apply, and this is why I don't condemn all rips.

And making a map with an original concept that uses a pro model would probably fit the fair use BETTER.

Copying a WoW model by making a from scratch version isn't much better either, you're still taking their creature/concept.
 
Last edited:
Level 14
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,156
you don't distribute them as resources unto themselves, only as a small part of a larger project. If people rip them from your map then they're responsible for if they don't use them according to fair use.

Distributing them as part of a project is still distribution.

You don't have to be emulating a game perfectly. perhaps you're making an original project which draws from another game and uses the same theme. So though it may use a,b, and c from game Z, d,e,f,g,h,i,j,k,l are all original ideas you are adding to it. This would be the scenario where it could fall under fair use.

No, it wouldn't. Fair use would be using it, say, as part of an article on the game. Using it for your own modding purposes as a labour saving tool isn't fair usage.

If he's making a guild wars map but adding a large number of innovative things, then it could fall under fair use. If he's just trying to get an accurate representation of guild wars, or a dumbed down guild wars, then it wouldn't under the first section. If it is free advertising and doesn't hurt the owners of the original that can also make it fall under fair use. The point I'm making is that there are situations where fair use WOULD apply, and this is why I don't condemn all rips.

No. Ripping stuff to create stuff in a competitor's game is not at all legal, particularly not if you are trying to replicate the game in question (thus acting as competition).

And making a map with an original concept that uses a pro model would probably fit the fair use BETTER.

Copying a WoW model by making a from scratch version isn't much better either, you're still taking their creature/concept.

Taking ideas is different, but is still covered (eg: LucasArts has a tendancy to shut down SW mods in other games, although they seem to have become a bit friendlier on that).
 
Level 9
Joined
Jul 18, 2005
Messages
319
I don't like to butt in but...

* Making models based off other people's work ain't ripping.
* Ripping or using resources from another game is illegal unless the company decides to release it to the public, i.e like the WoW icons
* Continuing this thread is pointless since the same things are basically being mention again or this is turning to a repeatitive debate
* I am not on anyone side.
* Moving off topic 1. You guys are bringing simliar things solved already 2. WE are talking about artwork, not ideas

Conclusion.
Don't use the Guild Wars Icons in your Wc3 map.

I mean seriously, people have no common sense aye

-Av3n
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top